Ep. 038 – Teresa Clark - Revolutionising wellness at work

In environments aimed towards productivity and reaching goals, wellbeing can easily be perceived as a distraction. When in fact, our wellness sets the tone for our relationships, our creativity and our ability to contribute. 

Together with Teresa Clark, we explore different lenses of wellbeing, such as trust, feedback and creativity and how we can think and act to enable a deeper sense of wellbeing for ourselves and in our workplaces.

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About Teresa:
Teresa Clark is the founder and alchemist of The Wellness Revolution. A pioneering culture and employee wellbeing company that support organisations to cultivate cultures of wellbeing that unleash human potential. Teresa’s is also a motivational speaker, wellbeing expert and consultant, who has overcome a very moving and traumatic personal history to spearhead positive social change. 

Drawing on over 16+ years of experience of working within mental health for the criminal justice system, NHS, 3rd sector and corporate world she is driven by a deep passion and intention to support people & organisations to thrive. Through her work, she has empowered hundreds of people to optimise their wellbeing, reconnect with their authentic selves and enhance their lives creating synergistic outcomes from collective shifts in mindset to social impact. 

Want to connect with Teresa:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/teresa-clark-the-wellness-revolution/

The Wellness Revolution

https://thewellnessrevolution.co.uk/

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EP. 038 Transcription

[00:01:17] Hi, Teresa, welcome. 

[00:01:20] Teresa: It's great to be here with you today. 

[00:01:23] Shani: Super excited to have this conversation. We met, um, month or so back, and we just flew into talking, uh, straight away and so I'm really, really excited to Yeah, just to get, to share the space with you. And before we kind of dive into the, to the big question that I always have, I was, I also wanted to give you a chance to share more about your perspectives and what has kind of brought you here.

[00:01:49] So you run a company in initiative called the wellness Revolution and Wellness Flow, just wellbeing are kind of the themes that really surround you. And so I'm very curious why this path? What brought you to do this work? 

[00:02:09] Teresa: Uh, well that's a great question and thank you for that lovely introduction.

[00:02:13] Um, so my background is in mental health and I worked in mental health for 12 years, but before I came into mental health, I actually, um, I had a degree in fashion for textiles and I had a life circumstance which happened to me, which was really, really tragic. Had a very, very serious car accident and lost three of my friends I was driving.

[00:02:34] And that led me on like a journey of huge kind of, deep healing and sort of personal transformation and kind of finding a way to turn that pain into a sense of purpose. And so that kind of set the trajectory really of my, um, My life. And I went into mental health because I could really understand myself because I had my own mental health journey.

[00:02:58] And that was really the start of it. And I spent 12 years, as I say, working for the criminal justice system as well. And um, charity sector and the NHS. And I was working for the NHS for quite a long time. And I, was in the hospital and I was sort of managed senior management level. And I wondered why we kept having this really high turnaround of staff.

[00:03:21] And the nature of the work is quite intense. And I also worked in forensics, which is, A type of mental health service where offenders who've committed offenses, while they're all very unwell, they come to hospital instead of going to prison. So it's even kind of more intense because of the, you know, the nature of the, the people that we work with.

[00:03:40] So it was always kind of sort of pushed, pushed aside as, as that was the kind of reason. But actually when I was there I realized that our staff were really, really burned out and there was a very, very toxic culture which was causing everybody to be pretty toxic to each other, to be honest with you. And it was really affecting patient care.

[00:04:01] And then what was happening was patients were ending up staying in this service for like 15 years or something when they, with kind of no chance of getting released. And it was just really sad. So, I started to think, wow, you know, we don't even look after our own, staff's wellbeing and we are a mental health trust, like what's actually going on in the real world.

[00:04:25] And I started to kind of look around at like friends and family and obviously understanding kind of what I'd been through. I was able to kind of see things maybe that other people couldn't see and I just thought, wow, we all are affected by mental health and we're all sort of struggling with something and the workplace is this sort of place that we, where everybody comes together and we've all got things going on.

[00:04:47] And then if cultures are toxic, they kind of exaggerate all of those things and end up becoming incredibly unhealthy for the people that work there, but also the businesses. And I just thought that the, the business world can be a huge catalyst for positive change. And that we, it's a place where we can actually really educate people around very kind of simple things of positive psychology, different, you know, we've got this incredible apparatus, our minds and our bodies, but we don't really know how to use our minds properly.

[00:05:22] And we've never really been taught. So being, being able to, teach people how they can kind of reach their potential and, you know, change their minds there and be more compassionate and all of those things. And so that was really the, the catalyst for myself to leave that job and sort of think, right, I'll set, set up this company.

[00:05:42] The wellness revenue revolution was 

[00:05:43] Shani: born. Wow, that sounds an amazing journey and just what came up for me also as you were talking, is how it's very hard to provide a better experience than the one you're getting. Mm-hmm. Even as you're saying, like you're in this trust that that's focusing on wellness and yet nobody's feeling well, how is, how is that supposed to generate wellness?

[00:06:14] So I worked with this from a customer versus employee experience point of view for a long time, and what you usually see is the same complaints on both sides of, of the fence. And you, you think it's not visible, but. Stress people give a stressed service. That's what we can provide. So, I love what you're saying also a, about the mirroring of these experiences.

[00:06:42] Mm-hmm. But also about the potential in actually investing in these workplaces or, um, in people in the workplace as a catalyst of, of creating better experience also outside of that environment. 

[00:06:57] Teresa: It has a huge ripple effect, you know? Mm. We, we become more conscious. We, affect other people in a more conscious way, but also we can see people more for the kind of experience that they're in rather than judging their experience and kind of, not understanding and almost probably making it worse.

[00:07:15] We can understand, oh, I see what's happening with that person now. I'm not taking that personally cause it's not about me. That person is having this experience and, and just. Helps you to be, like I say, more compassionate, but also, like you say, it has such an impact on, you know, stress people, and particularly managers and leaders, they have such an impact on the people underneath them.

[00:07:40] Managers and leaders are generally pretty stressed, you know, they have high pressure jobs and, lots of responsibilities and things. So if they're not able to manage the stress in a healthy way, then unfortunately that does get projected, down the lines and it can create, um, a lot of toxicity without even being conscious of it.

[00:08:00] You know, emotional intelligence is again, something that we are not taught. So, you'll kind of either learn it yourself and you maybe have, um, a sort of propensity to understand other people and your own emotions, or you don't. And if you don't then you know, that can be really dangerous in an organization.

[00:08:20] Hmm. 

[00:08:22] Shani: Yeah, I often think like we're we as humans, we're the most advanced tech in any room. We talk about technology, we're massively advanced and we're not, you know, many times in our life we're not even getting close to using or tapping into our full potential, whether it be for work or for, for any other reason.

[00:08:45] It doesn't, it doesn't have to be for work. Although I think that's an area of interest for any workplaces, for people to, to contribute with their potential. So you've, your experiences spanned across a lot of things and then you kind of zoomed in on, oh, on this. So maybe just, yeah. Let's come to this big question that I always have them.

[00:09:05] What do you think is a human experience or a good human experience, one that actually leverages the fact that we're human. 

[00:09:15] Teresa: What does that look like for you? Yeah, I, I think for me what that looks like, and I guess it's more of a progressive approach to this as well, is, is the sort of, um, the foundations that we need to fulfill our potential and understanding what they are and that they're actually multifaceted, particularly in the workplace.

[00:09:35] So when we think of wellbeing at work or when we think of wellbeing in general, I think there's still the, um, the viewpoint that wellbeing constitutes, you know, your physical and maybe your mental health and it kind of stops there. But it's so much more expansive than that, it's very holistic and we, wellbeing at work is, is play, is communication, is job satisfaction, is the culture, the exper, the employee experience, all of these factors.

[00:10:05] Um, affect the human experience. And so for me, a good or a positive human experience and going into workplaces is to create cultures of wellbeing that, that help people to flourish or sup or not help, but support people to flourish the right foundations so that people can, work with autonomy and have like, you know, their say and choice and, and actually co-create these experiences with the organizations that they work for.

[00:10:35] I think for me, an an unhuman experience of work is the kind of traditional approach of, the hierarchical. Micromanaging. You know, we, we had a lot of changes from Covid, but I still think there's still a lot, you, I've seen a lot of even stories now about people trying to push for everybody to go back to work and, just understanding that humans, we need to be flexible.

[00:11:03] Like, not one size fits all. Everybody's unique. And so the way that they work and the way that, you're gonna get the best out of people is that if you let them have some agency around, how they show up for work as long as people aren't, taking advantage, but, you know, people are humans. They need to be trusted. We can all be trusted. And so I think there's this, like, for me, unhuman is, this real lack of trust and the just not, not letting people have that freedom to be their selves, because that's actually gonna produce the best work, the most human experience.

[00:11:36] Because people can be authentic, they can be, you know, their selves. They can like really push for their potential because they, they have a place to grow and expand and they're not feeling, suppressed and oppressed. And unfortunately, I think a lot of workplaces still have that impact on people.

[00:11:56] Shani: Hmm. Yeah, I think so. An an observation from, from other conversations that I have is partially, we are still stuck with this very industrial paradigm in the workspace that directs us towards productivity. Not so much value, but mm-hmm. Producing or checking boxes or there was this, as you're saying, there's this sense of surveillance around it.

[00:12:25] There were some interesting studies also that came out of the back of the pandemic where a lot of work shifted to be hybrid, where also a lot of leaders expressed more frustration around the fact that, um, they don't know if people are doing work because that's the inherent role of a leader in that type of organization.

[00:12:48] So I also think. What sometimes challenges this is that it is pushing us to, pull up by the roots things that we're really used to. What does the manager take responsibility for? Mm-hmm. What does leadership even mean in this context? Um, what does it mean to do a good job?

[00:13:10] In a space that is built on trust agency, authenticity, autonomy, huge words. Mm-hmm. That's, that's entirely different requirements on a lot of the structures of the workplace. I think that totally. 

[00:13:27] Teresa: That we have today. And it, and it's a real shift in the whole paradigm of work and, and really our tagline at the Wellness Revolution is like reimagining the workplace to unleash human potential.

[00:13:38] Cuz it really is about reimagining because it's looking at those kind of cultural belief systems or collective belief systems about work and about like, like you say, what, what is a manager's role? What is a leader's role? What, what does a workplace look like? And sort of even kind of like thinking back, I've just had like a flash of David Brent and the Office come to mind of like, they, that kind of office culture, and still is, it's embedded a lot into.

[00:14:07] Not necessarily David Brent, but it's embedded a lot into people's minds. So it's very difficult to, , change those beliefs that are implanted. And I can understand in some ways, managers are sort of scared to let go because it kind of falls on them if things aren't done. But it's about, having these open conversations and creating cultures which support these certain values that we're talking about because, You need to have like as in, in the employee experience, certain behaviors that you are rewarding or certain kind of things that you want people to do.

[00:14:43] And we do it together, but we also are invited to take part in that. And that it's not just a sort of top down told what to do. It's actually a two way, uh, communication and collaboration because work. You know, we spend 90,000 hours, I think the average person at work in our lifetime. That is a lot of time to be spending at work.

[00:15:05] And so why can't we make work beneficial for everybody? Why can't work be something that actually does allow us to unleash our potential? Because not only do we, we flourish at work, but we also flourish outside of work and. I think if we as, as businesses, if we really start to, to look at like how do we create those cultures, not only will our business flourish, but we'll also have more sense of purpose and, , thinking rather than thinking about profits being the, be or an end with everything turning it on its head and sort of taking a, we can't get rid of capitalism at all, but we can maybe make it more conscious and, have like an impact on, the people that work for us, but also, our clients, our stakeholders, the communities that we are in.

[00:15:52] Like how can we give back and, how can everybody benefit from, from the organization? And I think moving forward, people looking for better experiences. And they're also looking to understand,, what is that organization actually doing too? they might say they're doing all this stuff, but, are they actually giving back to the community?

[00:16:10] What are they doing to help the environment? How are they making things sustainable? How are they supporting people's wellbeing? Because these things are all really important. And if you are not gonna get on board with those things, your business isn't gonna last because, you know, people just won't relate to it and you'll lose credibility.

[00:16:29] Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:31] Shani: Yeah. I think there's also something, what you're saying in terms of what will last. Mm-hmm. Um, because evidently we are hitting a little bit of a wall with whatever has been the paradigm up until now, and I think we are seeing that. People are increasingly stressed, sick, not feeling well, actually struggling with the opposite of wellbeing, which is, having different types of mental challenges.

[00:17:03] Um, and I love what you're saying here, and I think that's a lot of the more revolutionizing initiatives mm-hmm. At any type of scale that I see is, is about daring to flip different statements on their head. Mm-hmm. And I think, so one of the things that I've liked to challenge, for example, is the fact that we set performance as a goal Yeah.

[00:17:31] Rather than it just being an outcome. Mm-hmm. And I think that's a very trust-based, reasoning. Because if you, if you believe that, if you give the right context to people and you actually build a context for them to feel good and. Make the effort to make sure that their potential is serving in the best possible way.

[00:17:55] Then there will be performance, there will be achievement of something. That's not the end goal, that, that's just a result of, of doing the other things right? Mm-hmm. And I, I feel like this, among other things, there are so many different things that we are required to let go of, to move towards this.

[00:18:15] New way of thinking, which is, it's challenging and not just because there are people within that, that. Might feel like they're letting go of control also, because change is hard for us, even if we desire it. 

[00:18:28] Teresa: Oh, totally. You know, human beings, we, we crave change, but we actually really, um, are very resistant to change.

[00:18:36] And you see it all the time in organizations have change management not done well because again, it is such a human kind of challenge. And the impact that, that then has on the, um, psychological safety within organizations as well. If you, if you think about all those organizations out there that had a lot of layoffs at the beginning of the year and the impact that that's had on the culture and that sort of created quite a fear-based environment and made people feel uncertain whether they might still have a job or, you know, are they, disposable.

[00:19:15] And then you've got the people have left and then the culture kind of has to kind of. Go back to where it was. But it, it takes such a long time for that trust to be built again. And I think you raised a really interesting point earlier, which made me think about when we were talking about managers and letting go of trust and a lot of control.

[00:19:33] I think a lot of organizations have been run on a kind of fear-based culture and that's what we've really got to shift out of. I think, you know, sometimes fear can push for motivation and, and maybe fear in a healthy quantity, but I wouldn't even call it fear. It. There's something else that we could, relabel it as an maybe sometimes we need some pressure of course, to get, to drive things or hit targets particularly.

[00:20:03] But there's lots of other ways that we can do it. And it's really kind of about really being honest as well of like, what's going on in our culture and. Understanding how people are feeling and where the challenge is. Cuz there's always some form of challenge within the cultures. Something that's impacting other things and can we drill down and really investigate what that is And then, using it, the, a design thinking process, create new ways.

[00:20:33] That work for everybody and that generate these really positive spaces where people they're doing their best work because they're feeling motivated and they're feeling, cared for. Wellbeing is intrinsically linked to performance. And I think that's what a lot of organizations don't understand is that you can't really have one without the other.

[00:20:54] High performing. Teams need to have optimal wellbeing. They need to be able to deal with stress. They need to be resilient. They need to. Have energy they need to be able to understand their own rhythms. And , when they get the best out of themselves, they need to be recognized.

[00:21:11] You know, you ever worked in a culture where they don't have any recognition, it's just awful. It's soul destroying you just, that is not getting your best work because you just don't feel even acknowledged or recognized. And I think, again, a lot of cultures don't even have a structure around how they recognize and appreciate people.

[00:21:30] And that's not like you have to shower people with, you know, gift cards and lunches out. It's just, actually taking time to personalize how you're gonna acknowledge somebody's good work and not just, your direct your line manager. It's about actually recognizing your whole team and how do we instill that into our culture as well.

[00:21:50] Hmm. 

[00:21:52] Shani: Uh, two things come up as I listen to you. One is this piece of recognition and how. We're so very often, and we forget this about ourselves, I think we, we need some resonance around us to, to know that, I exist and yeah. What I do matters. Mm-hmm. And for some people it's these grand goals and big impact.

[00:22:20] And for other people it's, these colleagues around me and there's nothing that's more or less, valuable. It's just how differently we feel about the meaning that we can create where we are , and how that's mirrored back to us seen and received by others. And also just hearing you talk about this kind of dealing with stress and understanding our rhythm, and it also makes me think about sports.

[00:22:48] Mm. And as so many of us, Not myself included, cause I'm not a huge sports person, but still looking at this, a lot of the big sportsmen people idolize and think they're amazing. They have coaches and massage, you know, people and they have all the support in the world to be at that level of performance.

[00:23:09] Yeah. And mental coaches and all kinds of things. Mm-hmm. And that's their job. So great. Like congratulate them on, on having that. And then, and that's kind of the levels of performance we often idolize and admire, which is often a supported level of performance. And yet when we look to work. 

[00:23:30] Teresa: Yeah, most people don't have any support.

[00:23:33] They just sort, the culture doesn't, is not supportive of their personal growth. And I think that's, you, you've, um, used a really great example there to show, those top athletes, not only are they looking after their bodies, like their, nutrition, exercise, sleep, their wellbeing is optimal on all levels.

[00:23:50] And look at the performance. And look at how much they are reaching their potential. In fact, there's this incredible book, uh, called Exceptional by Dan Cable, who's um, a business psychologist and he talks about like, how do we become exceptional? how do we kind of reach our potential? And he talks about having a show reel, which is what professional athletes have, and they'll work with and they'll actually have something like a showroom, which will show their, best.

[00:24:16] So it was a long jump or something. And then they just sort of replay it in their head and they use visualization. And he talks about doing it in the context of, in the workplace. Like how do you create your own showroom? Not necessarily that it's gotta be a video or anything like that, but it's something that you play in your mind of when you are at your best.

[00:24:35] And so you can recognize that, but you can also then have it mirrored to you by your colleagues and they can, you can send an email, say somebody, oh, I'm working on. This, could you tell me when I, you've seen me at my best because we don't ever really hear that unless, um, and sadly, it's like in our u eulogy when we die that we hear all the good things about ourselves.

[00:24:59] We don't tend to hear those things while we are still alive, which is just so sad. So if we , again, flip that, and actually ask for feedback, we need feedback to grow, like positive feedback, but we also need to understand, where we could do better, and not take it as, harsh criticism.

[00:25:17] It's like actually to reach my potential. I understand that I have blind spots and I have areas that I'm good at, and I have areas that I'm kind of okay at, and I have areas where I'm not so good at. And so by understanding, other people's perspectives of, maybe how you can improve or helping you to see a blind spot, particularly I think in.

[00:25:39] Leadership , how to become like a great leader that empowers and, that really does motivate people. They're the best leaders, they really do help people to reach their potential because they encourage them to grow. But, who is giving that leader, that encouragement too, so that they can, develop themselves.

[00:26:00] And I think that's like a really fascinating way of looking at encouraging potential more as well. Our minds are just so powerful. We really can reach our potential on so many levels, but it's just understanding that, and if you, if you don't understand, and we all have a negativity bias, we're born with it.

[00:26:17] Our limbic system hasn't evolved in millions of years, however long human beings have been on the planet. So we still are reacting to, threats from our ancestors. And so that's why stress levels are so high. Because, our ancestors be, would be getting, they're Amy regular triggered, getting chased by some kind of animal.

[00:26:37] We, we get, if we, we are running late for a meeting or we haven't answered in email, it's the same response that's happening all the time. And then, cortisols flashing through our bodies and, we're just constantly, like our nervous systems are so out of sync all the time. Mm-hmm. It's really, you know, such a thing that we really need to tackle, and help to calm that down.

[00:27:00] Shani: Yeah, I think, I love that you bring that point up. I think it's something that I also have observed a lot in terms of, and also have read a little bit on, because I think we also underestimate how much social or physical threats are actually completely equal to our brain, and it doesn't really matter. We kind of talk about it as if it's more dramatic to be chased by a tiger, but it's equally dramatic or traumatic potentially to a brain to be excluded from a group.

[00:27:31] Totally, yeah. Or to feel like you're kind of being threatened in some other way. So it's definitely, I think part of the vulnerable points, of the structures that we have today is we kind of set up these structures for feedback and at the same time these are structures that then also threaten. Our possibilities.

[00:27:58] So we get feedback, but off of that, that will determine how you, your pay is and how you can advance and how other things. And it becomes a really, really threatening scenario. Yeah. There is a book called An Everyone Culture by Robert Keegan. Hmm. And he, this is also like a flipping that thought on its head because he studied then organizations that he calls deliberately developmental organizations.

[00:28:27] And what they've done is development is the key currency. So there is an example of one organization where everyone has to have a backhand, which means everyone has to be entirely aware of one thing that they are not that good at, that they are working on. And they have to openly and continuously ask for feedback around that going into a meeting and.

[00:28:52] Their performance, I don't know if we call it that, but in brackets is then measured on whether or not they're spending time on their development. Not necessarily if they're getting massively better, but how invested they are in their growth. And that's kind of the measuring point rather than, and uh, that's to say there are many, many ways to, to tackle this, but it's just another way of 

[00:29:19] Teresa: this approach, isn't it?

[00:29:20] Which, yeah, which I re, which I actually really love because also I think that we have, like, there's a, there's a certain taboo as well around, like you say, around receiving feedback and people aren't trained well enough. I don't think it's always one of those, situations where, The person receiving the feedback has already got certain beliefs around, what that would feel like, for the kind of factors that you talked about.

[00:29:47] But again, I think it's that sort of collective belief system. And so we all, we kind of look at feedback. Oh, we're gonna receive feedback, it's gonna be a bad thing. And we, and straight away, cortisols flushing through our bodies and we are already in the threat response. So, maybe we don't, even if it's not meant as criticism, we take it like that.

[00:30:06] One of my, one of the revolutionaries, uh, John O, who's a, just an incredibly enthusiastic and amazing person, he calls it fruitful feedback. So it's like, how can you really get the be, how can you know the person giving the feedback, get the best out of the person and empower them, and how can the person receiving it, take that away and let it be like a motivator, not something that, they feel ashamed, because it's not nice to feel ashamed about something.

[00:30:34] I think the workplace is, Is somewhere that really does generate a lot of anxiety because a lot of workplaces are quite competitive and so you are always comparing yourself. And even if they're not, that's a human trait like we do compare ourselves to, to other people. So, that creates anxiety in itself.

[00:30:51] So, mm, if we get feedback, we don't want it to be something that we are dreading and then, and then we go away and hate ourselves for a week, and then it causes us to be more anxious. So how can we really tackle that as an organization and how can we train our leaders and, and how can we make it something that's not just your leaders that are giving impactful feedback?

[00:31:07] It's something we do as a team. And I really love, radical, candor. They, the people that kind of developed, that, they do this, they did this amazing exercise, um, which we actually use with organizations too, and it does generate more psychological safety as well.

[00:31:22] So it's like, how do you celebrate somebody for extraordinary work? So you would nominate somebody, but then also you would nominate yourself for making a mistake. So basically you would like out yourself for making a mistake. And I just really love that kind of, approach of, making normalizing failure as well.

[00:31:43] Sometimes we all make mistakes and actually they're our biggest learnings, all of the great, inventions in the world and the great organizations, they weren't made straight away. Like they, several failures to get to that great thing that they've produced. But again, I think there's this thing in organizations where this sort of, fear of failure , and if organizations don't support it and don't create those cultures where you feel safe to experiment and try things out, then that is a, is another source that can really, make people very anxious and, and not performing at their best either, because you are too then in your mind about what you are doing and worrying what other people are gonna think, and are you doing the right thing?

[00:32:25] Are you doing the wrong thing? And that just creates like more and more anxiety. Mm-hmm. So if we can really, establish a way that we. Can generate this psychological safety, but doing it in a way as well, that's actually quite, it's more human. It's, and it's actually quite fun cuz when someone talks about a mistake and they make it, a bit humorous and we all have a bit of a laugh about it, oh God, did you do that?

[00:32:48] Really? But not shaming them and then it just, it just makes it like we're all the same, aren't we? No one's perfect and there's too much, that's another thing that I think happens at, well in society in general, it's just real, perfectionism and like always sort of searching for that perfect thing and, and being perfect and it just doesn't exist anyway.

[00:33:09] And we need to learn to let go of that more and, and understand, that society's like feeding us with these beliefs too, and how much they can really impact, perfectionism, is a, is a really kind of restrictive thing to have. And again, another very much anxiety provoking experience.

[00:33:30] And while you are kind of in that place, you, you don't even realize how much it's controlling your work and your life really. So again, like how can we create cultures that kind of turn that on its head, and help people to be a bit messy. Mm-hmm. Cause humans are messy. We're not perfect. 

[00:33:49] Shani: No, I like that.

[00:33:50] And it just makes me think some years back, I, I ran into this, like, the cliche that everyone usually uses was, is fail forward. And I kind of took it and ran with it a little in a sense, cuz then I ran into another thing, which is there is no failure. There is only do or learn. Yeah. And when you talk about this, I also think it's, it's that sometimes that.

[00:34:19] We, we, we focus so much on this giving space of failure. We actually forget what that essentially means. Mm-hmm. Is actually leveraging, not failure, leveraging challenges. Yeah. Or things, or obstacles or things that come away, or things that don't go as we predicted. Mm. And. Using those moments as a stepping stone or a board or something to propel us to a new place.

[00:34:53] And I feel like sometimes when I listen to a lot of the reasonings, we stop at that like the failure celebration and we actually forget to show ourselves and the organization how these moments are moments of learning and moments of reflection. And I think I decided quite a long time ago to adopt that.

[00:35:16] And this is coming from somebody who is a com was a complete and author perfectionist. And I would definitely overwork things to an extent. Yeah. That wasn't good for me and didn't produce value for anybody else. And yet I think, many years down the line of that thinking, I still find myself going, if you ask me if I failed somewhere, I couldn't tell you where have, are you screwed up?

[00:35:41] In my life, in my career, 120%. I'm human being I, you know, on different types of scales, big and small, of course, but I could never, I, I can't look back and say, oh, that was a. That was a massive failure. 

[00:35:58] Teresa: Yeah. I don't even like the word, like the word no has so many, connotations to it. And, and it's like, I just think everything's an experiment.

[00:36:06] Like, try it out, doesn't work. I've learned this and I'll do this, I'll do this differently. We're like, what can we, as a team, like when something happens, like what can we take from this? What can we learn? Like you say, how can we grow,, how can we use this, as a, um, as stepping stone to get to where we, want to go?

[00:36:24] So many amazing things can happen from an experiment that doesn't go the way that you wanted it to go. You can come up with like a completely innovative, idea, product, service solution and, and that's the thing as well for organizations and businesses of the future to really stand the test of time.

[00:36:43] Creativity and innovation is what's gonna stand them apart. And , you can't be creative or innovative unless you are having that space to experiment and to try things out. And for them not to work out how you thought. And also like, it's so difficult to predict, the outcome of something, especially when people are involved.

[00:37:01] Mm-hmm. So, you know, the more we can encourage and give space for creativity, innovation, because that's something also that needs to have its own space. you can't expect people to be like, right, it's two o'clock, sit at your desk now and be creative. You know, it doesn't work like that. And so how are organizations, creating if you are in an office, like how is the, the organization creating that environment that encourages creativity?

[00:37:27] And if it's something in, within a remote company, again, how is the culture supporting those moments of creativity and innovation? How are they supporting psychological safety, and how are we really living that, not just saying it, but how are we actually creating it and living it on a day-to-day?

[00:37:48] Shani: Hmm. I think that's a really good point is how are we acting it out? It's also something that comes up in many discussions. Um, I also work with culture, and culture tends to also be similar to like wellbeing. It's this kind of big word that we can all use, but we rarely make it like concrete and actually translated to what does it mean?

[00:38:11] Like how do I see it in reality? Um, so I like where you're saying and just bringing me back to this initial word that you had around flexibility as well. It also makes me think that a lot of the times we need to. Create different spaces of possibility for people. Mm-hmm. And then, then comes the trust.

[00:38:35] Like have the trust that people are able to move through and decide the flow of that on their own. And perhaps also in that, support them in building a capability to do that sometimes. Because a lot of these environments that we create, they don't support. Mm-hmm. Independent thinking, they support following instructions.

[00:38:56] Some do, for sure. Mm-hmm. And then, But then what does it really mean to stretch that thought of flexibility of autonomy? The threshold I keep coming up to with this as trust. 

[00:39:08] Teresa: Totally. And also when you were talking then it, it really made me think about group thinking. Diverse thinking and diversity in workplaces as well, and like, how are we encouraging that?

[00:39:18] Because we don't want everybody to think the same. Yes, there are kind of things that we need to do and we need people to approach them, but how do we stop that group thing? Because group thinking organizations is actually quite dangerous. It really does. Then you kind of get this sort of culture that's so rigid and stuck because everybody's thinking the same.

[00:39:38] There's no kind of room for innovation or creativity and then yeah, it can become very toxic. So we need to be really mindful and acknowledge that that happens. And then how can we. Create the, um, experiences for people what behaviors do we wanna see? Like, what, what are the values that we want to live and embed, and how do they support us to move away from.

[00:40:02] These approaches that that do happen in organizations? No, it's like dynamics, group dynamics. It's what it is, what happens. So how do we kind of make sure that it doesn't happen? And then also how do we tackle tackle, when we have like a lot of silos, silos in organizations is huge. How do we tackle that?

[00:40:21] Because then it's like you've got like loads of microcultures going on in organizations, , and then you see , oh, that team's doing great cause they've got a really great leader. So that's sort of microculture, but this one's not doing good at all. And why is that? And then how do we kind of bring them all in?

[00:40:36] Shani: I think. I think it's really interesting though because there's this term of both end thinking and I just find myself coming back to that a lot cuz. We keep having to deal with contradictions in almost any environment that we're in. And also here, what you're talking about is of course, the space of a company or any other collective space.

[00:41:00] There is this desire and ambition to usually create some kind of unified culture or a common experience, and yet that common experience has to be able to hold the multitude that exists within it, the different perspectives, the different opinions, the different choices, and I think. As in particular actually, when you are stressed, when you are not feeling good, when you are feeling threatened by something, these are also the moments when we kind of shut down and just wanna streamline everything.

[00:41:33] Yeah. And so there are also so many benefits to daring to like open that up. Yeah. Because we're missing out again, that comes back to the thing that you were talking about with the creativity. As we're shutting these lanes down, we're also missing out on the opportunity of creating things and, and collaborating that are actually available to us.

[00:41:55] But that we kind of, um, yeah, we limit ourselves a little or the structures that we are in contribute s to us being to be limited to that. 

[00:42:07] Teresa: Totally. Going back to those ways, it's like really dehumanizing again, isn't it? Mm-hmm. Cause it's, it's, then it's like, oh, productivity, back in the Industrial Revolution mindset and, sticking to those things and not allowing that space to, um, yeah.

[00:42:22] To, to flourish. And, and how do we help people flourish? Like what does that actually look like for the individual? And how do we have a unified culture? But that still allows individuality. That's really the goal. And, understanding that everybody is unique and how do we sell it rather than, Getting people to all conform to being one certain thing.

[00:42:43] Like how do we celebrate uniqueness and how do we encourage uniqueness? I, um, read something really interested on LinkedIn, of a, somebody that was talking about, organizations are very similar to cults and they have definitely are very similar and certain organizations are.

[00:43:02] So, you know, really thinking about that as well. Whenever I see, An organization like, their kind of, uh, style of writing, talking about like their business, their organization as a family, that I find that quite concerning to be honest with you. 

[00:43:17] Shani: No, I agree. I think that's, that's very intimate and it also sets a very, very different level of expectations on, on the organization. I listened quite a lot to Miki Kashtan. She's, uh, she works a lot with non-violent communication. Oh, I love that. And um, one of the times she said something that really stopped me in my tracks, and she's talking about groups and I'm hoping I'm quoting this.

[00:43:43] Okay. The essence of it was any group needs to have criteria of inclusion and criteria of exclusion. And that's not to say other groups are not good or other ways, it's just to provide the framework for the identity of that collective. 

[00:44:03] Yeah. It's this balancing act then between leaving all the borders open and everything open, which is kind of, we talked about like, One size doesn't fit all, one size fits nobody in the end, and it becomes more anonymous. Mm-hmm. Versus it being like super, super narrow and culty.

[00:44:23] Teresa: And I think that really is the, the challenge for like 21st century organizations and any business, how do you find that balance of creating.

[00:44:33] Co-creating something. Cause I think it is about, first of all, you have to co-create it. You have to speak to your employees. You have to understand their experience and, and what works for them and what doesn't work for them. And really think as well about like, how do you communicate to people.

[00:44:50] What's the messaging that you are sending out and like, how is that actually supporting people's growth and, and potential as opposed to kind of, you know, narrowing and, making it feel really awkward if you don't end up, like, I know Sweden's different here and, and hopefully UK businesses are moving away from this a bit, but I know still in certain industries, if you don't go out for drinks with people after work, then you know, that's like kind of looked down upon.

[00:45:17] But, we shouldn't really be encouraging people to go out and, booze it up with, with workplaces. I think because I, again, it's becomes very to toxic and you know, it then becomes something like, oh, I've gotta force myself to do this if I wanna be liked or if I wanna be accepted. Mm-hmm.

[00:45:35] And so it generates a lot of, a lot of unnecessary Issues. 

[00:45:42] Shani: I think that's interesting because it just brings me back to this theme that has kept coming up as, as I speak to a lot of people, which is a choice. When we set up structures that are so dependent on certain things like going out for beers after work, then we're also removing autonomy for people.

[00:46:02] Mm-hmm. Um, and B, that when we, when we create these things, and of course this is the thing again, of balance, like it's valuable to have rituals that you can share. Yeah, definitely. But you have to be mindful of within which spaces they are, if they're stretching into what would be other areas of people's life that they find valuable, if they have to deprioritize their family or their friends or something else that they would like to do.

[00:46:29] Just to be sure to have a space within this workplace. So I'm just thinking it's like there's this thing. About finding this balance between the rituals that tie us together and also the capabilities that help us connect to each other, because sometimes we are just depending on these rituals. Mm-hmm.

[00:46:50] Like if you don't come for a beer, then we can't connect. Yeah. Okay. But what if we instead become really good at communicating to each other? Mm. And we find a really good way of doing that. And we can do that in every meeting that we have. 

[00:47:05] Teresa: Yeah. We don't need to go out for beers to communicate and connect with each other.

[00:47:09] No. 

[00:47:10] Shani: And again, it's, it's balanced because it's beautiful to share rituals. Yeah. And, and to have that be a shared experience. Mm-hmm. And to have that be something that give us an anchoring point of something that we do, and, you know, how do we play with that within what is the kind of tolerable space of being work?

[00:47:29] Yeah. I keep thinking about that, um, kind of collective. Individual balance. Which kind of brings me to my next question for you. Mm-hmm. We talked so widely about so many things and we talked about organizations and individuals and always like to wrap up on just something you can do because it's easy that these things just float around in our head and there are ideas that we like that don't become anything.

[00:48:04] So I'm curious, and maybe there's two levels to this, is wellbeing is a big question. Right? And we can't leave it up to our workplaces solely to be responsible for it. I'm wondering maybe on two levels, like what are, what are things to do as an individual to, to. Start approaching wellbeing in ourselves or in our, you know, close environment.

[00:48:34] How do we contribute to that to ourselves and those around us? And the other part of that, and then maybe being, what are big things? Maybe two or three things that organizations 

[00:48:43] Teresa: can focus on. Yeah, great question. And it's really funny actually that you asked me this cuz just as you'd finished talking, I was actually gonna say that something that's really, really great for enhancing meaningful connections too, but also cultivating cultures of wellbeing within organizations is when you're having your team meetings or you certain rituals that you have with, with when you meet, whether it's like one-to-one, I think it works well in a team is to, um, have a check-in in the team meeting.

[00:49:13] So not, and, and ask. So we ask three questions to everybody and the first one is, um, what are you grateful for? And it can be something in your life or something at work. What are you finding challenging at the moment and um, what would you like to celebrate? And so then we go around like five, 10 minutes each depending on how much time we have once a week.

[00:49:41] And it's just a way for us to connect to each other and we, encourage organizations to sort of take this on and create, change it a bit to suit their style. But you get to see your colleague from a different perspective and , sharing their vulnerabilities around challenges.

[00:49:58] And then actually we do ask four cuz we ask also what do you need support with? And if there's anybody that can support them, we'll match them up. And then, then it's just sort of creating not only you creating psychological safety within the team, but you are also encouraging, gratitude.

[00:50:16] Such a simple thing, but it really, really does boost wellbeing. You know, there's so many scientific studies on, what it actually does for the person giving the gratitude, talking about what they're grateful for, but also other people re receiving that and, and then. Giving gratitude to somebody in your team during the meeting as well for something that they've helped you with.

[00:50:37] And it just creates like a sense of wellbeing and, increases like positive effect among people. You have to be intentional about, bringing it into the space. Mm-hmm. And even when you're really busy actually making this a priority because.

[00:50:53] Wellbeing is a priority and if you can create more of that in the culture, it just has such a knock on effect, enhances communication, we feel more accepted. So, so many things. And then I think on an individual level, there's loads of stuff that I could say here, but I think one of the, one of the biggest things is to really just start to be conscious of yourself and to look at yourself with curiosity.

[00:51:17] Not, not as, we tend to look at ourselves with criticism for not doing things, but looking at your sort of, I say do yourself an energy audit and, just having a look at where am I at the moment? Like, what are my energy levels like, how's my thinking?

[00:51:32] Like, am I thinking more positively? Like, is what's my mood? Like what's my stress like? And just sort of really being honest with yourself, with no judgment. And then just sort of thinking, okay, well is there something that I could do to improve? How I'm feeling. Like do I feel as good as I'd like to feel?

[00:51:50] And if I don't, which we can always feel better, what can I do to maybe improve how I feel? So, you know, is it that I could do getting a bit more sleep? Am I going outside for a walk every day? Am I making sure that I'm spending time with people that I love? You know, what is it that's gonna boost me and, and how can I commit to myself?

[00:52:12] And so the really great way to do that is to have some non-negotiables so you can have between three to five wellbeing, non-negotiables, isn't it? No matter what you are gonna commit to yourself that you will do these every day. And just doing that is just such an act of, self-care and it really does have such a beneficial impact cuz I'm sure probably everybody is doing something that they do anyway that they've may not realize that is like a wellbeing non-negotiable.

[00:52:43] So it's taking what you're doing and then, not overwhelming yourself and, getting up at 5:00 AM and running and doing this, that and the other. That what we are told we should do is just thinking actually what works for me. Like what do I, what makes me feel good?

[00:52:56] Like my non-negotiables could be. I was gonna actually ask do you have any non-negotiable wellbeing practices that you do, and why do you do them? 

[00:53:07] Shani: Yeah, I love that question. I'm, uh, I'm in a period of reevaluation on my non-negotiables As life goes, sometimes you kind of go into new phases and context change and yeah.

[00:53:20] And then I find myself. Being exactly as you said in the beginning, more an observation of what I need, um, and where I am. And so yeah, I think right now non-negotiables are daylight movement, relationships, um, and connection somehow. And, uh, yeah, and I'm working on the nourishment in some good way. Come, uh, and it all comes and I think actually what I'm finding is where I used to when I was younger, stack everything and do it all at once.

[00:54:04] Now I'm kind of, every week I'm adding something and I'm testing something and just I'm playing with it a little bit more, um, and being a little bit more. Attuned to what's possible and building up that space to, uh, yeah. To create more wellbeing for myself. So it's a process I guess, and it's always this journey.

[00:54:25] Yeah. On an individual 

[00:54:26] Teresa: level. Totally. And that's a beautiful journey as well of like experimenting and just, making it curious and like trying things out and something we might think, oh, I, I think I'll like that, but we do it for a week. And actually no, I don't think that's for me. And that's okay.

[00:54:40] It's like, I've not invested, my life in it or whatever. And I'm not a failure cause I haven't done it. It's just like, I don't like doing it, I don't wanna do it, I'm gonna try something else. So I think that's really great example of, how you are finding your own flow and, and how also that that flow process or your own wellbeing process is also, not a, it's not linear, it's.

[00:55:02] Squiggly and all over the place, and sometimes you can be really invested and committed and, depending on what's going on in your life that might get adjusted and, and just, you know, kind of thinking of yourself. I like to think of things of as, um, metaphors and just sort of thinking of, of yourself like a stream and, and you know, as a stream would go round a rock and find a way to do that.

[00:55:27] Just sort of think of yourself and your flow like that too, so that you are not becoming too rigid. When you don't, when you come up against something and, that means that day you don't go out for a run and then you feel like an absolute failure because you haven't, done what you said you were gonna do.

[00:55:44] We need to get rid of that, belief systems as well. So it's, um, the non-negotiables I think are, are a really good way to start, especially if, you're new to the wellbeing journey or it's something that you haven't really thought too much about. Mm-hmm. It's a really good way to, yeah, just start to think how do I wanna feel cuz this is my choice, how I feel.

[00:56:06] Shani: I love that. And also think it goes very well with another, um, thought that we practice a lot when we work, which is best principles, not best practice. So not getting stuck on like, copying exactly what somebody else is doing. Just understanding, what are the core things that I need? And then you get to play with what that looks like exactly over time or even in short spans of time.

[00:56:34] Um, and maybe there is a level of prioritization within those. So, I mean, sleep might be another one for me. Yeah. So if you don't, if I don't get enough sleep, then some other things might be pushed aside. Yeah. Because yeah, this is, this is it. So there's areas to play. Mm-hmm. Which I think, you know, this, this line of thinking is probably what's also hard to adopt in, in a corporate space because it's set up for this rigidity.

[00:57:03] And Totally, just to your point, as before, kind of being more in flow with things require a different uh, flexibility, a different ability to iterate, to reflect, to change, and. Yeah, that's not how we're used to. And I can't say I know all the answers to this cause I definitely don't have a lot of questions.

[00:57:25] Yeah. 

[00:57:27] Teresa: But I think, you know, who does know all the answers to, to anything And, and, and we're, we're just a work in progress. And I think the biggest thing as well is, don't make it competitive to yourself or to other people. My wellbeing flow is gonna be completely different to your wellbeing flow.

[00:57:43] And I think society does, if you look on Instagram or even on LinkedIn, there's this sort of like framework that if you want to be a high performing person or you know you want to be a leader, these, you know, you should be getting up at 5:00 AM you should be doing this, you should be having cold water showers, you should be doing all these things.

[00:58:02] And yeah, that might work for some people, but it doesn't mean that it's gonna work for you. And also, You need to just do what you feel is right for you, how you wanna feel, and your wellbeing. Non-negotiables might be just laying down, staring at the ceiling for half an hour. You know, that might be the thing that you, that benefits you the most.

[00:58:24] So it's about just, yeah, not, I, I think too much comparing then makes, then makes it feel like, you know, you're not doing it right or you should be doing more, and then it becomes something that actually isn't enjoyable anymore. 

[00:58:40] Shani: No, I love that. It's, and I think it loops back to your first point where just observe yourself.

[00:58:47] Hmm. It's not, um, yeah. It's interesting. It's again, the both and right in, in a wellbeing is in one way just very much attached to us. And then as soon as we're in a collective, it's also impacted and affected and needs the support of others. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, you come back to this a lot in terms of there's always this part of my individual responsibility.

[00:59:15] Mm-hmm. Both in terms of what I do for myself, but also in terms of what I put out to or contribute to creating for somebody else. Yeah, definitely. And that can be different levels of impact, right? Mm-hmm. So I might have ability to impact my team. Or I might have ability to impact a structure or a policy or a solution that can impact somebody else.

[00:59:35] Mm-hmm. And then that's beautiful. And any level is a good level. Just I think realizing those dual responsibilities, especially in the space of work, can also be a really and daring to play with it. Yeah. Being interaction with people about it. 

[00:59:51] Teresa: Yeah, definitely. And, and share, sharing things as well.

[00:59:54] Not in terms of competing thing, but you know, I think that's really positive as well. And that's why that kind of meeting structure of having that check-in and being able to sort of share what's going on for you and how you are feeling, and just encouraging open discussion as about emotions. I think that's a really key way forwards in terms of wellbeing because, you know, emotions are sometimes quite difficult to feel.

[01:00:17] Um, and just by kind of normalizing, talking about, things that, you are grateful for, but also things that you are finding challenging and you may maybe need support. They're just, it just, I think it just creates this sort of sense of belonging as well of, it's okay to say whatever you wanna say here.

[01:00:35] This is like a safe space and anything welcome here, and encouraging that really does really affect wellbeing in such a positive sense. 

[01:00:45] Shani: Mm. So creating the ability for us to show up in the way that we want as, as humans. Yeah. It's, uh, super important and not necessarily entirely easy, but I think we covered a lot of ground and a lot of very, uh, both practical and philosophical perspectives.

[01:01:11] Hmm. So I just wanna say massive thank you to you, Theresa, for sharing your knowledge and your view on this and, it was a lot of fun to talk. 

[01:01:23] Teresa: Oh, it was an absolute pleasure to be here. I had such fun. 

[01:01:27] Shani: Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to the Experienced Designers.

[01:01:32] I hope this episode brought you some new insight and some new topics to stop and wonder about and get curious. Special thanks to Teresa for sharing her perspectives and deep engagement on the topic of wellbeing. And don't forget to click subscribe, and as always, get in touch with any questions or suggestions.

That's how better experiences are built.