Ep. 039 – Dieter Veldsmen - Trends shaping employee experience & HR
Dieter Veldsmen is Chief Scientist - HR and Organizational Development at the Academy to Innovate HR based in the Netherlands means he’s perfectly positioned with his work to share insights on the current trends and challenges. Together, we explore the increasing focus and need for more human-centricity, the shifts with labor unrest, not being heard, resulting in diminishing trust. Moving away from traditional HR operating models, letting go of the past and embracing a new paradigm and ecosystem operating models.
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Want to connect with Dieter;
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dieterveldsman
Academy to Innovate HR;
www.aihr.com
EP. 039 Transcription
[00:00:00] Steve: Dieter, welcome to the experience Designers.
[00:00:03] Dieter: Thank you so much, Steve. Great to be with you And yes, thank you for the opportunity.
[00:00:07] Steve: Yeah. Good stuff. Good stuff. I don't want to, I don't wanna speak ill of my previous guest, but I don't know. I'll be looking forward to this one. I've got a, I've got a feeling we're not gonna be short on stuff to discuss and I'm gonna put it out there. I'm, I think there's a suspicion of a serial podcast coming up, I suspect.
[00:00:24] Anyway, I'm putting that out there. So just for the audience detail, cause I'm really curious about the company and the business you work with. You do really interesting stuff. So just to, yeah. Give a little bit of insight into yourself and and the company and what you guys do.
[00:00:36] Dieter: Yeah, sure. Thanks Steve. So I'm with an organization called the Academy to innovate hr, and really our goal is to look at how do we. Reeducate and reposition the HR function and HR professionals for the future. We believe the world of work is already changing and will look a lot different over the years to come, and we believe that HR needs a bit of a step change, and we want to be part of equipping and enabling the HR professional of the future.
[00:01:01] So we work with, in about a hundred plus. Countries with 300 plus clients in terms of what does their HR functions look like and how can we continuously educate them? The role I play is as chief HR scientist. So for the academy, I look after a lot of our thought leadership. I look after some of our own original research as well as what should we be teaching HR professionals for the future?
[00:01:22] And get to engage with people like yourself and to change the HR conversation and the narrative. So that's a little bit about what I do.
[00:01:29] Steve: Good stuff. Talk about right place, right time. That's a privilege. So can I just ask cuz you guys do a lot of research just in terms of trends and things like this, so just you I did see I think there was a video that you guys shared La latter part of last year, 2023 trends and, typical time of year for the next year trends.
[00:01:47] But I ha I have to say the trends were very good. What are you just. To give a, like a synopsis or an overview, like where are you seeing some of those different kind of focal areas right now in this field?
[00:01:57] Dieter: Sure. So I think, Steve, what we had identified from our own research for 2023 and beyond that there's three major shift. That we are starting to see. And I think the first one definitely is around how the employer and employee relationship is starting to change. And, to give a little bit of detail in terms of what that means is we think that the relationship of trust between employees and employers is going to be an important topic for the future.
[00:02:20] There's a lot of change at the moment around how people work and where they work. So we believe that's playing very much into new employment models, new ways of thinking about talent. The second big trend, and I think, that's the one that everybody is talking about is the significant shift around why and where do people work.
[00:02:36] And I think we sometimes get stuck on the remote working and hybrid working context there, but it goes a lot deeper where we need to think about how do people get purpose from work, what does autonomy look like in work? As well as then what are some of those other elements that makes work worth it and how we are going to rethink how work needs to be designed.
[00:02:54] In the future. There's a very big mo movement at the moment on how do we deconstruct work and just think differently about the eight to five, four day work week falls in that slot. Remote working, hybrid working falls into that type of thinking as well. And the third thing that we spoke about, and we labeled it as the silent crisis that we need to deal with, and there's two aspects to that.
[00:03:14] The first one is a shift towards thinking about total human wellbeing. Especially in the context of big changes in terms of artificial intelligence, which we are a big supporter of. We think that's definitely the way to go in future. But there are a few things that we need to solve for, and that touches on the second element there in terms of the silent crisis around what is the next generation of leadership.
[00:03:34] Look and how can we, from an HR point of view, play our role not only in becoming the leaders of the future, but also on the other side, preparing the leadership pool that's going to take us into this next season of work and next era of the workplace. If I can call it
[00:03:48] Steve: Yeah. Nice. Oh, lots to unpack in there for sure. Let's just talk about this trust piece because I'm really, you're right. I think there is an erosion that's taking place. We're seeing the. Cycles come becoming more often in terms of redundancies. Just in terms of also how organizations are treating their people.
[00:04:09] Obviously it's, it gets reported way more, it's way more visible. What do you see in the trust side? I'm really curious to, to delve into that. Cuz I think this is something that's really relevant right now as to current state.
[00:04:20] Dieter: Steve, we are seeing a bit of a paradox there because, during the pandemic on the one side, some great research that was done by Edelman at the time actually spoke about the fact that organizations are one of the most, are trusted more than things like government bodies in terms of the information and the care that is provided.
[00:04:36] However, post pandemic, there's been a very tight labor market on the one side as well as a looming recession. There's big political instability. The war that we're finding in Europe currently, as well as then to your point, organizations have started to tighten the belt. We've seen some huge layoffs, especially in the tech sector, and this is influencing just, I think, the relationship between employers and employees.
[00:04:57] I think there was a big collective, we are all in this together during the pandemic. I do get the sense that has shifted a bit towards, but it's actually me looking after myself and can I really trust the intent and the motive of where. The organization and very often represented, through the leader or the direct manager.
[00:05:14] Is coming from. And trust for me there is around, what does psychological safety look like? What does the market for me look like? What does my prospects look like? And then also just understanding that we are these different parties around the table that all need to come and say, but this is actually my expectation of this relationship.
[00:05:30] What is your expectation and how can we make this work? It's not a one-sided affair. I think in the past it was organization driven. There was a strong shift, I think to be a lot more human centric and human driven, which we also support, but that can't happen in the absence of acknowledging that there's an organization that also has to thrive and survive.
[00:05:48] And that's that. So in trust, I think that's really the crux of the foundation that we need to solve for. Maybe an interesting thing to mention in the US the first time since, 1965, that there's a very positive sentiment around labor relations pertaining to the fact that people are supporting unionization a lot more.
[00:06:05] And we're starting to see a lot of the organizations that we usually quote, in terms of look at the practices that they have actually starting to have the struggle with their employees wanting to unionize. Now I'm a supporter of unionization, but in the right context, and it points just that there's something below the surface that's not working.
[00:06:21] Steve: Yeah. People are creating collectives, the collective movement, the power of the movement. We saw it with that. We saw it with Amazon, right? With the c e o, the huge, I think it was 23,000 staff, I think, signed a petition or something against going back to the office as an example. I just wanna share, maybe just add on to what you just shared as well.
[00:06:38] Yeah. I think that, that kind of pre pandemic and then obviously that shift during pandemic and I d I definitely see or saw. A really interesting thing around HR as a function, really stepping up and getting praised for that period. I think that was a poignant moment for that function in, in many ways.
[00:06:58] And then also I think like the power of humans. I think when our backs are against the wall or there is a scenario that we all have to come together or we just have to just get on with it and adapt and experiment along the way, we were forced into that and it happened and actually it.
[00:07:13] Things carried on. So it demonstrated I think the power of people for sure. But also I think during that period people had that space to question the new para, the new paradigm a lot more, both in terms of their own personal situation at home or with their families or time or whatever context they from a human perspective they had.
[00:07:33] Then now we're then forcing that square peg into back into a round hole. Then of course, I think the trust element. I think could be eroded as part of that, just because organizations the way, the more the how they're engaging their people to entice them back in or to engage back in, in the previous way can then of course have an impact on that experience from an employee point of view.
[00:07:57] Dieter: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And I think something that organizations did well during the pandemic is to listen to employees. We found 90% of organizations actually had some shape or form of a employee listening strategy in place. Asking for feedback, saying how are you doing?
[00:08:12] I think a lot of good organizations continued that practice to say, let's talk about return to the office, cuz it's not going to be the same for every single one. I think one thing we learned during the pandemic is you have to see the human being in the context of their life, not in the context of their role, which is a mistake that a lot of organizations deem to make.
[00:08:29] But I think there is, there is this notion, and I think organizations are ignorant if they think everything is just going to shift towards the way that it was. Because I agree with you that I think for the first time in. Decades. People had the opportunity to sit back and say, let me question a couple of things that I have just always assumed had to be that particular way.
[00:08:47] The illness of our time is busyness. It's the fact that we don't get around to sense making and reflection. And I think a lot of people have come out of that period and saying, I actually want something else. I want it to work differently and I think organizations need to adapt to that to say, but that means that the relationship and expectations we have from people needs to look different.
[00:09:06] And the way we engage is going to be different, has to be to the benefit of both. But it has to be set up differently. Instructed in a different way.
[00:09:13] Steve: Yeah, we're human we're very habit driven. And that habit shifted. And of course that allowed space for reflection and and enlightenment. I think on many respects. I think the whole great resignation thing was fascinating to watch the narrative around that.
[00:09:25] And it was, for me, I was like isn't it obvious? It's we saw it in the financial crisis. I had a recruit, I had a recruitment company then, and we could see in the candidate base in terms of when we're interviewing them and understanding their context. You could see just if that was a piece of research, you could see the human shift happening just in the financial crisis.
[00:09:43] So really interesting. Just to also you mentioned this as well around leadership because I think. Oh, I keep saying this at the moment. If you're, if you're a business in leadership development, you should be fully booked this year is my view. So what are we seeing this, because also what does leadership look like both in terms of now around the current state and also I'm really questioning at the moment in my own mind, what does future leadership and management or data management look like?
[00:10:10] Because I just think. There's so much that, so much pressure on them as a human, as a, from their own experience. Yeah. What, where can we go with this? I think it's really interesting, exciting.
[00:10:21] Dieter: Yeah, I think there's a real shift there as well, Steve, that we are starting to see, and I think it's a positive thing, but this is my, a view and kind of prediction of where I think we should go is I think we are coming out of an era where the disruptive leader that's extremely innovative, that comes in and throws everything out, comes with a brilliant new idea and builds something that we can all admire.
[00:10:41] I think there's a place for that type of leadership. I do believe that the season that we are going in, we need to start celebrating and developing a different type of leader. And I think it's a leader that has a bit more of a longer term view around, what is really the implication of the decision I need to make now.
[00:10:57] That we are going to be facing a lot of ethical and moral dilemmas over the next couple of years that leadership has to make sense of and have to help their people understand why are we acting in a particular way. And I think, and if I'm, if I may be so bold and call it, The more conservative, slightly more boring, responsible leader.
[00:11:14] Maybe that's what we need in this next period to navigate the uncertainty of, where the world is. I think different leadership styles, in situational leadership and there's different leadership models. They all have their time and place. But I do think we are going into a bit of an era.
[00:11:26] We call it principle led, call it human led. With qualities such as empathy, but also being able to deal with the complexity that the new world of work is going to bring. And to be able to say, there's two opposing views here. What are we going to do about this? And what's the right way to go about it?
[00:11:41] And I think that's, really important. What I worry about on the one side is, we celebrate the wrong type of leadership, which then. Automatically breeds a next generation that wants to be like that, or on the other side, we don't spend enough time really helping leaders understand that they have to actually explore and unlock their own leadership style in a particular context.
[00:12:01] That self-awareness piece that we alluded to earlier, that's going to be so important for leadership in the future. Who are you as a leader? What's your identity? And how do you wanna show up as a leader? Because that doesn't just happen. It's a conscious decision that you need to make. What are you going to.
[00:12:16] To leave behind. And for me personally, the best definition of leadership is somebody that came in and just left things better than what they found them. But what does that look like, in the current world of working in the current context?
[00:12:26] Steve: you just said something that are really interesting. What am I going to leave behind?
[00:12:30] I think that's super interesting. I think there's a, I dunno if you saw I've seen it quite a bit, maybe just cuz I've honed in on it. But this whole thing around unlearning is really big. And that's, as you say, that self-awareness, self-leadership piece.
[00:12:42] How are we like, How would we describe the current kind of leadership management population right now? What have we got in the mix right now? Because I think we've got a really interesting mix of different levels and different approaches. We always have done, but I think more so at the moment just because there's definitely more people and more more managers out there.
[00:13:01] Yeah. What do you see?
[00:13:03] Dieter: Yeah, there's a couple of interesting things. I think Steve, I think the w the firstly is we are dealing with a bit of a trend called the prematurely promoted, which is, in a very skills tight labor market, what sometimes happens, people need to step up into positions. And on the one side, that's great because we're starting to stretch people.
[00:13:18] However, what has started to happen in the leadership and management domain, it's almost like we're pushing people through, especially our high flyers too early, and they've got all the technical skill, but they haven't quite developed that emotional maturity, the behavioral components that they need to really lead holistically.
[00:13:33] So I think on the one side, you know your earlier comment, Great opportunity, for leadership development, coaching, bringing people along. The challenge we face there is if we don't do something now, we are going to get people that just role model what they've seen before, because that's a natural thing.
[00:13:47] You spoke about habits earlier. I do. What I've seen others do, I. I do what I liked when I was being led by somebody else, and I try not to do the other things. I think we do need to step a little bit away from that narrative because, realistically organizational designs are also starting to change, where leadership is not necessarily tied into a position or into status or into a level.
[00:14:07] It's tied a lot more into. Who is best equipped to guide us going forward, and I think that's going to be a very important thing. So how do we help leaders understand that it's not a position, it's actually the way in which you engage, the way in which you step up, and that's tied towards other things, which brings us to things like status and ego and power.
[00:14:25] Those are things that we need to help people understand. How are they going to make sense of it? Because that's going to be different.
[00:14:30] Steve: Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot to unpack in that one for sure. So just in terms of the shifts, because I think for me, if we think more, let's go f kind of, let's talk hierarchy for a second, but if we go further up into kind of C-suite what are you seeing in that area right now? Because I think also the shift.
[00:14:48] For that population is super interesting. What are you just what are you getting a sense of? What have you seen out there? Just in terms of how they're thinking or just some of the challenges that they're currently facing.
[00:14:59] Dieter: I think firstly the, I think for C-Suite it, it's always been a really tough job, right? But I think we've always approached it a little bit from a, is the business performing? The board wants all sorts of various things. I think the dimension that's now been added is I. There's this portrayal of what the leader of the future is going to look like and these very different expectations.
[00:15:17] All of a sudden, out of this middle management layer and out of this employee layer we have fallen into the habit a bit of putting C-suite leaders onto a bit of a pedestal. They are only human. They are going to make certain mistakes and we need to acknowledge that, and we need to equip them in an environment that is a lot more supportive.
[00:15:32] Something I worry about with C-Suite leaders at the moment is loneliness. Because I think it's extremely lonely at the top, and I think still there's a lot of old power dynamics that play out around the fact that, yeah, but I'm the leader. Something happened to me when I got that C in front of my title and I can't ask for help.
[00:15:47] I can't reach out. I can't admit that I don't know and have all the answers. I think the best leaders there are the ones that understand and realize it's about how they surround themselves with the people and the structures that they need. To be able to lead and to guide and leadership at that level is a privilege.
[00:16:02] It's not a right. And we do need to help people understand that. But it is quite tough and I think it's okay that C-suite has to go through a bit of a. A supportive period where we get them there, and take them through this period of, what is your style going to look like in the future?
[00:16:16] It's okay to be vulnerable, it's okay to act with empathy. However, it's a very complex environment. It's okay to be tough on performance, but you, it ha there's a way about doing that. It's not the knee-jerk reaction type of thing that we've seen lately. So I think it is about helping them find that narrative of what leadership is going to look like and telling them it's okay to lead in a different way.
[00:16:35] That kind of journey of exploration, but it is tough. I really feel for C-Suite leaders at the moment, it's always been a tough job, but at the moment there's a lot of things internal to the organization and in the external environment that's asking a lot of new questions.
[00:16:47] Steve: Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. So let's we'll have a link in this, I'm sure. So let's just choose these two words for a second because they've accelerated considerably and we're both very much in this space. Employee experience. So good Old ex. What do we see in this area? Just, let's just jam on this for a second.
[00:17:06] What's happened? What the hell has happened with ex in the last five years? Because it's been, it was really interesting to see it. It's evolution.
[00:17:13] Dieter: No agree. I think that, I've always been a very firm supporter that we need to look beyond kind of employee engagement just on its own and really start looking at it a lot more holistically and say, where do these different components link, together, and what's the actual experience on the day-to-day, what the employee goes through?
[00:17:28] I think we've seen some significant shifts. The first one is definitely, and I can speak from an HR point of view. This perception that an employee is actually a consumer in the organization of what happens in the rest of the environment. Whether that's line of business systems dealing with customers dealing with HR systems, et cetera.
[00:17:43] And this whole notion that an employee is actually a consumer then tells us that we need to start thinking about HR as a product. And a product then has certain implications on what we want people to think, feel, and do as part of that. And I think that's changed, the ex landscape. I think we still at the beginning phases of maturing the employee experience in organizations.
[00:18:02] And we still get stuck a little bit on, the moments that matter that we think is important as opposed to really shifting it around and saying, okay, but hang on, maybe there's something different from the outside in. But I think it's exciting and, if I was a betting man, ex would be one of the things that I'd be on for future successful organization.
[00:18:18] Steve: Totally agree. If we think about CX industry where, you know, just from a maturity level, they're having their own challenges and disruption going on right now. I, my mind is what was ex gonna be in the next five or 10 years, and I think I'm, I. I am super, super privileged to be writing amongst it and working in the, in this area because I think it's got so much so much potential.
[00:18:39] And for me I'm really, I get really warmed in the heart that we are actually talking now about in intentionally designing employee experiences and that intentionality is so important rather than reactive. I just wanna go also just go back on, on a point you made there as well around.
[00:18:57] This deconstruction of this kind of top down or decisions made in a room. Of a very narrow perspective of a problem or a perceived problem, and then solving that problem with a moving straight into solution mode and solving that problem, but without actually engaging those in which it's gonna be actually experiencing it.
[00:19:17] Gee, this is probably one of my biggest areas that I'm constantly challenging. And just encouraging and guiding people through is shifting their lens and perspective. I think it's paramount to do that, particularly with ex work. What do you see around that in terms of some of the challenges?
[00:19:34] Dieter: I definitely agree. I think there's, for EK strategies to really be successful, you have to find answers out of the collective of the organization. There's a quote that I love to use and it's not my own. It's an old African prove proverb that says, the power of the fish lies in the water.
[00:19:48] And organizations need to tap into that wisdom in the EK space because ultimately, the people that you are designing for, they know best what it is that they need. And yes, we have to balance it with the different perspectives. But there is this notion around the fact that you have to involve people.
[00:20:01] So I think, employee voice and I think employee dialogue and how we surface a lot of those insights is going to be paramount to the success of any ex work because you're right, it can no longer be, I always talk from an HR point of view, it can no longer be, all of us sitting in a room and saying you know what?
[00:20:16] I think the talent experience needs to be the following. We need to go out there. It's not done from behind a desk or behind a closed door. It's done with the people, for the people. And I think that's a really important shift in terms of how we design practices, how we think about experiences and then eventually how we get towards how things just flow in an organization.
[00:20:34] But I think that is quite a different shift for a lot of people.
[00:20:37] Steve: Huge shift. We're gonna maybe talk about shift for who in a minute as well. Just in terms of what, what does. What does the what's the role of design in this as well? Because I think there's all of these big words and we, I'm very guilty using them. But when we bring them into the kinda HR space or into this context, it's we need to simplify it in a way.
[00:20:57] But I'm just curious where do you see design bringing value into this space as well?
[00:21:02] Dieter: I think there's been a big movement obviously towards, incorporating a lot more design thinking and design thinking principles. Where I see the real value of that is to try and just adopt a design thinking mindset with, from an approach point of view. For me, sometimes it's less about the methodology and the tools, it's a lot more about how we want to approach things in a particular way and, For me, there's a couple of things that stand out.
[00:21:23] They don't work on assumptions, speak to the actual consumer, make data and evidence-based decisions, and be willing to iterate and be wrong, because I think that helps a lot if you start approaching different things in that particular way. And then for me, it's less about the tools and the method, and it's more about the way that we, think about thing and want to explore things and want to unearth.
[00:21:43] Reality and truth and solutions. So we sometimes I find a little bit, we get stuck on, is it this five step method? Is it that model? Is it this three step method that's going to be, work based in our context? For me, it needs to be less about that and more about how do we install that type of thinking in the organization and in the different stakeholders to say, you know what, let's try that.
[00:22:03] This is not going to harm anyone. But it would be really good for us to understand what's happening in that moment, for example, and. We're sometimes a little bit fearful of of taking that risk.
[00:22:12] Steve: I agree. I agree. I'm gonna throw something in here. D there is a very famous industrial designer, Dita Rams, a German designer. He was famed for a lot of his product design for for bra.
[00:22:25] Dieter: Yep.
[00:22:25] Steve: Back in the day. And in fact the very first iPod, I think it was with, from Johnny, ive, I think it was actually inspiration was taken from one of his original radios, white radio.
[00:22:34] So it's really interesting. He's got yeah, he's steeped in legacy around design and yeah, big fan of his, however you share the same first name, Dita. So I thought I'd bring it up because. He he's not, he's, I'm a, a big fan of his and he's famed for some quotes. So I'm gonna just share with you a couple of his quotes, which is contextually outside of our space, HR and E ex, et cetera.
[00:22:57] But let's just jam on this, about, let's recontextualize it. Let's learn from this and pull it back in together, right? Sos, see what it, how it lands. So he talks here about having small touches of color makes it more colorful than having the whole thing in color.
[00:23:12] Dieter: No, I love that. Love that.
[00:23:15] Steve: So how can we spin that into hr, into ex.
[00:23:20] Dieter: Firstly, there's no relation between our two first names. I just need to state that, categorically upfront. What I, Steve, what I love about that quote that you've mentioned is, I think we make a real difference in, in people's lives and in the life of the organization in the small moments that matter, as opposed to sometimes finding and trying to find this big silver bullet that changes everything.
[00:23:40] And I wanna. Illustrate that with a very practical example. So if you think about the life of an employee in the organization, Very often we've tried to find this, what does this great thing look like when they join us, when they leave us? These types of things. But if you flip that around and say it's a real human being, maybe the real moments that matter is, I am somebody going on parental leave, I'm really worried about what is this going to look like or I'm returning from parental leave.
[00:24:03] I dunno how I'm going to adjust. I dunno how. This new setup in my life is going to be in terms of how I balance certain things. Maybe that's a way more important moment to think about, to do something meaningful between the organization and the employee at that particular point, as opposed to a bit more of a generic thing around bonus time, because that's a once off occurrence type of thing.
[00:24:24] I think, if you want to bring that into our space, that quote it is, but what are those small moments and go and really understand why they matter for the employee and how can they provide value to the organization? How can we deposit. You mentioned trust earlier. How can we deposit, goodwill into this trust bank account between the, employer and the employee?
[00:24:43] And at what moments are those things going to matter a lot more? Because it is about the small things and it is about the things that, that matter that culminate, I think, in big, significant change. Now it's like the, you eat an elephant saying, you do it little bit by little bit, otherwise you'll never get there.
[00:24:59] And I think ex is very much about that.
[00:25:01] Steve: Yeah, I agree. I love the return. I love the return to work after parental leave. Cuz if you really design for the person or the groups or the personas within, cuz there are also, if you go deeper with that, there's first time parents. So their first child leaving, their first child emotional level is By the time you get to second or third charge, you're like, yeah, but that's the reality.
[00:25:22] It's a different emotional kind of response to that scenario and that experience from their perspective. So I loved, I absolutely loved that example. I'm gonna shoot another one. I'm gonna share another one. This one is actually one of my favorites. So indifference towards people and the reality in which they live is actually the one and only cardinal sin in design.
[00:25:44] Dieter: think, that one comes back to what we've spoken about a little bit that, people are humans first. And I know it's, it sounds so, whenever I speak to practitioners and say, we are going into this, what I like to call the human experience era. For HR specifically.
[00:25:57] And they say, yeah, but that's always been obvious. I say if it's been that obvious, why haven't we been following those principles? Because very much we do like to I don't wanna say reduce people to numbers, but we do like to forget the things that are inconvenient about, the realities of everyday life that people also have to go through.
[00:26:14] You mentioned earlier people had the opportunity to reflect during the pandemic. I think we had the opportunity to reflect around things like. Is what I do really worth it to do the commute that I do currently to sacrifice the time that I have with other people. Let's build on a parental example.
[00:26:29] Maybe my need out of work and where that fits into my life for that period is going to be very different, then. The young upcoming person that still, it's all about career. It's all about opportunity and exposure. And I think seeing people in that vein, in that light shifts a little bit around the way that we engage.
[00:26:45] Ignoring that I think is to the detriment. Organizations look at what we celebrate now. We still celebrate person that stays late. The person that goes above and beyond, the person that, that sometimes does the things that we. In the past have celebrated as being the good employee. But that's not being a good human.
[00:27:02] And I think that's a very significant shift that we need to think about because there is value for the organization in taking that approach. And shifting the framework within which we make decisions pertaining to people practice. So maybe that links a little bit to to his comment.
[00:27:16] Steve: It does. I'm gonna, I'm gonna look back to something on that in a second, about the first and the second place. So remind me. So and the last, so there's one more. Question everything generally thought to be obvious.
[00:27:30] Dieter: There's a story that this makes me think of where the little girl. Goes towards her mom and says, why do you slice a pot roast in half when you put it in the oven? And the mom says, because that's the way your grandmother taught me. And the little girl goes to the grandmother, same question.
[00:27:43] And the grandmother said at the time I didn't have an oven big enough to put the whole pot roast in, which is why I sliced it in half. It's that type of why thinking and questioning, thinking and at the heart of it lies curiosity. The curiosity to know and to understand and to explore.
[00:27:56] We talk a lot about learning organizations and adapting organizations. If there's one thing we have to get right is to build curious organizations that are not afraid to question the obvious, but also to explore the unknown because that curiosity is, I think, what leads you towards being able to survive and being adaptive.
[00:28:13] It's not your. Yeah the strategy necessarily on its own that you've got in place. It's that curiosity around, I wonder what would happen if. That type of thing, obviously within reason, I wonder what would happen if we try it this way. A big movement for me at the moment is this complete shift from functional domains towards solution-driven areas in organizations where we say, you know what?
[00:28:34] Actually we need different types of thinking, which means we need a different type of team. Let's pull people from different disciplines, different walks of life, put them into the same room, and get them to ideate on the same problem. That comes from being curious and I think that's, such a big important thing for organizations to cultivate.
[00:28:50] Steve: Perspective seeking. Absolutely essential. Putting your own assumptions aside, I some of the work that I do, I genuinely have done this a few times. I've actually got people to write down their assumptions on a piece of paper and put it in an envelope. And then we go, we're gonna open this up further upstream and let's see where we're at.
[00:29:06] And it's it's a nice way for the aim for just people to park it and get out their brain onto a piece of paper. But I think just the symbol of that is yeah, just remember your eyes are one perspective of a scenario situation problem. So I think that's that's really powerful.
[00:29:20] I, I think also just to build on what you sh what you said there as well, is that. As humans, we have these automated things that happen in our brain all the time. We're our, the way we're processing information or processing our environment to shield that out in order to give us our conscious focus it's just, it's ridiculous.
[00:29:39] It works over time. And so as part of that, I always challenge things such as, When a candidate comes to your office, a new, a potential new hire, a new colleague, the minute they walk into your reception, they are seeing your business in a perspective that might seem obvious to you. Every day you filter out all that rubbish in the corner and you filter out that old sofa or whatever it might be.
[00:30:03] But actually they're in buying mode. Their whole lens is looking at things in a very different view. And therefore you have to really think about some of those key moments from the perspective of somebody seeing it for the first time. Onboarding is a classic for that. So yeah, we normalize things and that's okay.
[00:30:18] But we, yeah, there's opportunity in that as well for growth and and experiences actually.
[00:30:23] Dieter: No agree. And we are starting to see a lot of people are starting to shift. When they think about the employee experience and when it starts versus, where does the candidate experience fit? We are starting to go a lot higher upstream to say, it actually starts whenever people become aware of who you are as an organization, which tap into that, how are you telling your story?
[00:30:41] And the external markets, so the employer branding type of thing. But also how do you make sure that you tell that in an authentic way so you don't run into trouble later on in the employee experience that you can't deliver on the promises that you made. But I think it does prove to you that, people will always engage with their own worldview and their own assumptions, and that's okay.
[00:30:59] But help them see that there is a different perspective and be aware that there is a different perspective than your own. Your example of the candidate is a, is a brilliant one. You think, oh, it's fantastic coming into our head office environment. We will wow.
[00:31:10] Everybody that walks in here, Somebody walks in and says, oh wow, I didn't know you were, and then they start listing the things that might or might not be true, but perception is truth in that moment. And that definitely influences it.
[00:31:21] Steve: Good stuff. Thank you for playing my data game. That was good. That was good fun. Yeah, that was good. I thought I'd throw something in on that one, just so it's good. So Dita I just, one of the areas that I'm really curious on as well as part of this discussion is HR. Because I don't know.
[00:31:39] They get a bad rap. They really do. I think that I've said this for some time. I think at times there's been this. Internal PR disaster or internal narrative. You ask people, oh, hr, they go, oh, hr, and it's, I think it's unfair at the end. I do think it's unfair in some instances, but it's steeped in, such a, we're going by decades, and I think there's still this kind of.
[00:32:01] Connection that we have in terms of what those two words mean. And invokes me no invokes I think, emotion for people in different ways. What's your view on that? Where do you see this kind of shift happening in hr, both as a function, but also as a profession? And then I think just to overlay that around perception as well around that.
[00:32:23] What's, what are you seeing?
[00:32:25] Dieter: I think that's a great question, Steven. I first need to say that I am an extremely passionate HR professional myself, so I would always talk from it, from that point of view.
[00:32:33] Steve: So you should.
[00:32:34] Dieter: But I was speaking to a couple of colleagues a while ago, and we actually spoke about the fact that for a lot of HR professionals, when you ask them, outside of the work setting, what is it that you do?
[00:32:43] Not a lot of people tell you they work in hr and there's a couple of reasons for that. There's the obvious ones that immediately people want to send you their CV cuz they're saying, oh, okay, hang on, I'll send you my cv. Or they want to talk to you about what's the biggest problem they're facing in their team.
[00:32:56] Or they want advice on some sort of, employee relations or team effectiveness type of issue. And I'm saying that in jest, but what it points towards this fact is that there are previously held perceptions of why an HR function exists and what it does. And you're right, a lot of that is rooted into.
[00:33:10] The way that the HR function has evolved over the years. If you go back a hundred years, the role was very much anchored in, employee welfare from there, very much in labor relations, and it started shifting towards the latter part of the 1990s towards this concept of a strategic partner.
[00:33:25] A very different approach, different practices coming to the table. A big shift that's now starting to happen is, if I'm honest, I think HR for an employee up to a couple of years ago was still very limited and very transactional. Now, I saw you during recruitment. I saw you during contracting, I saw you, something went wrong, and maybe I saw you during, like a big event that hr HR hosted.
[00:33:45] Whereas I think now with, some new approaches, new tools, new focus areas and new business problems to solve. HR is becoming a much bigger player in the life of an employee themselves and not just in the life of a manager or a leader or an organization. Yes, they are still crucially important stakeholders, but I think we start thinking a lot more about, what does it look like for the individual employee in the moment.
[00:34:07] Yeah. And it's tech enabled and it's digitally enabled, but it is a lot more about. Viewing things from the employee perspective. So I say that because I think that's driving a beautiful movement within HR to say, but what does value add look like at all those different levels? And if that's the case, how should we be changing the perception of what people think the function is?
[00:34:26] Because we do need a rebrand. And when I say rebrand, I don't mean we need a new name. That's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to we need a new, an I. I teased somebody yesterday, I said, If you appoint one person in your HR team, appoint somebody that's worked in public relations before, and they're like, but why on earth should I point somebody like that?
[00:34:43] I've got an internal comms person that can write my communications. That's not the point. You need to drive an internal perception change that you can back up through actual evidence and proof points around what HR does in the organization. Because yes, there is difficult things we need to do.
[00:34:57] There is uncomfortable things that we need to do, but you have to go and reposition that. So I think there's. Maybe to make it tangible, a couple of years ago there was a very public publication that brought out a magazine cover that says Why everybody hates hr. I think it was in 2018, that exact same publication came out a couple of weeks ago that says why everybody wants to work in HR now. And there's a big shift. But I think there's still a lot of work to be done because, un unfortunately, there is still. Previously held perceptions of that hr, is on the side of the employer. It's always trying to take advantage of and keep the employer safe. Yes, we do have a big responsibility around risk management, but it does not mean that we do not represent other parties in the organization as well.
[00:35:39] So new models, new perceptions, new skills, that's what we need to move towards. I think.
[00:35:45] Steve: Okay. How does that model then start to evolve? Because I think where we've got these kind of different dynamics happening at the moment, tech is gonna play a massive part. Ai, I know we could just do a part on ai. So ai, I think like from an erosion of hrs role and what they do, there is an element that's going to evolve and I don't think that's just exclusive to hr.
[00:36:08] I think it's many different contexts and organizations and industries. So that's interesting. And then we've talked about, you've mentioned a few times about this consumerization experience, digital experience, which people are still on this digital journey. And the expectations of employees both in terms of their consumer demands, but also bleeding into their employee perspective as well.
[00:36:29] And then we also have this piece around, Like not just the tech piece. We've also got the piece around where they then bring value and also like you've got the mainstay HR elements which need to stay, of course super important. But then there's this other element which is more exploratory evolution.
[00:36:45] And where does that start to go? Where? Where do you see that part? Where do you see, if we looked at HR on a more lateral piece, it adding value and evolving laterally rather than up or down. How do you see that evolving? And them doing
[00:36:59] Dieter: Yeah, I think, Steve, I think firstly there, I think the movements in technology in HR is a very positive thing and I think there's so much opportunity in it. I think we've been almost always hunkering towards this thing to say, we want to play a different role, but I think for the first time, technology-wise, we are actually able to do so by, actually augmenting the technology piece to what HR does.
[00:37:21] To answer your question, where do I think HR is going to go? I think HR is going to explore a lot of new domains that's going to come into the fold from a value point of view, I think there's huge opportunity in the social impact space. I think personally, employee volunteerism, employee activism is going to be a very interesting
[00:37:36] Steve: Oh,
[00:37:37] Dieter: for HR to start thinking about.
[00:37:38] Steve: about this. Yeah.
[00:37:40] Dieter: I think very much more on the organizational side. I'm a bit biased cuz I come out of that world, but the organizational design development piece I think is going to be crucially important. How do we help build tenacity in organizations? How do we build resilience in organizations?
[00:37:53] Obviously tied into the wellbeing component that I think will truly come as a strategic priority into hr because it's not about only employee assistance programs, et cetera. It's about so much more, in terms of building cultures where people want to join, want to stay and can actually be healthy and prosper.
[00:38:08] And I think those domains are going to shift into HR where we start applying a very different type of thinking. Is the transactional piece still there? Most definitely it is still there as it augmented by technology. Definitely it has to be because I think otherwise we will never be realistically be able to focus on some of those other, kind of elements and other domains that I think is going to be quite important.
[00:38:29] The last part I think, and it touches a little bit on our ex conversation, is I think there's going to be much closer. Kind of integration between functions like HR and marketing. Obviously in the space of, things like employer brand, employee ambassador programs, what does external presence look like, et cetera.
[00:38:45] But also with talent markets becoming very distributed and very non permanent and very fluid. I think HR, as a representative of the organization in the external market is going to be a very interesting thing around how do we see that? Because ultimately I think people are going to decide on.
[00:39:02] Where they want to spend their time from an employer point of view, a lot more based on what the people's stories and testimonials is that they hear about the organization versus what the formal PR stuff is that is in the public domain. HR needs to play a role there, but it's a different type of HR professional than what we have today.
[00:39:18] It's a different type of skillset, different type of thinking. And I actually think, over time, and maybe this is a little bit, Controversial. Please knock me
[00:39:25] Steve: go.
[00:39:26] Dieter: I think that the function itself not only will be designed very differently, but I think it might actually start operating in different parts of the organization and act a lot more as a, collective collaborative community that gets pulled together with different priorities that links towards a common goal and purpose.
[00:39:41] But I don't think it looks like, what it looks like today and we will start talking very differently about about the function. I think if that helps a bit. So I think there's an external part, there's an internal part that gets broader and then I think there's a a kind of a focus part that gets a little bit more towards, not just the now, but also the future.
[00:39:58] I think in the past, unfortunately, a lot of HR has been based on where are we now and where do we need to go? I think we're going to shift it even further to say, who do we need to be in future? And that's going to become part of the kind of the HR value add.
[00:40:09] Steve: Yeah. So I, I think, oh God I see this becoming much more. think operating very much at strategic, but then all the way into the human right, the way down to that human experience. I think they can influence both of those in a really, yeah, in a really impactful way. That's really cool.
[00:40:29] That's really cool. Have you got, have we got any examples of like companies doing. Interesting things around this because when you talked about the like the distributed HR model as it were, so we can call it. What came to mind was, like, in my head anyway, was like ecosystem of this kind of, because it's so complex.
[00:40:48] Cause we are dealing with the most complex being on the planet. And not probably one thousands of them if you're a big organization. So it's no mean, mean feat. So yeah. Just to get what do you see? Like how do you, yeah. Where have you seen examples but also this ecosystem thinking as well, this distributed approach.
[00:41:04] Dieter: Maybe a few practical examples. There's a couple of organizations that are exploring something we call talent exchanges, for example, where they say, I understand that somebody's got this need to build their career. I can't offer them that next step. Let's actually start thinking about swapping them out with another organization for an extended period of time.
[00:41:20] They get that move, they get great experience in a different industry. Obviously it's not a competitor that they're swapping out with, and these people come back and they bring some new knowledge back into the organization. Now I mentioned that because in your ecosystem comment, what's happened there is we've started to understand that hrs.
[00:41:35] Domain and scope is not just within the organizational borders. They're starting to go a little bit wider than that to start saying, the world looks different. We also need to start operating quite differently with regards to that. I think there was always a strong movement towards governance control, standardization.
[00:41:52] I think that shifted a lot more. A lot of organizations are doing some great work around the, personalization space within reason, but also then pushing out a lot of some of the traditional HR functions that used to set. In one, one place starting to push that out to get it as close as possible into the business.
[00:42:07] So those designs have started to change, already. And I think a lot of people are experimenting with that. I think the huge leap we need to make, and this is a personal view, is. The way HR functions grow in organizations, it's always very tied towards the employee headcount growth in an organization, right?
[00:42:24] Because we almost respond to the fact to say, when you're a small shop, you need somebody that does some operational stuff for you. And at some point you need somebody that helps you with recruitment. At some point you need somebody that helps you with learning.
[00:42:35] I'm wondering if there's not an opportunity for real ecosystems thinking is to say, is there not an opportunity for organizations to tap into a central hub where they can share?
[00:42:44] So you run a company, I run a company, I say It would be great if our people have learning opportunities. I can't build an l and d department and I can't buy all the tech. Why don't we club in together? And we actually start thinking about that collectively. Cause for me, that provides. A lot more human access for smaller and medium type of organizations to also be able to infuse a lot of those things into their employee experience, which unfortunately sometimes only happens in larger corporates because they've got the resource and the time and the scope, to be able to do but that's a very different, type of thinking and a very different type of ballgame to consider. Won't be for all, but I think there's something to explore there.
[00:43:22] Steve: Yeah, I think I, I'm seeing this a little bit in the physical. Domain right now, like office space seats to meet, which is actually Dutch. I think I seem to, I heard very recently, I think they're testing something where they're actually embedding inside of a organization or an office space.
[00:43:37] And then that that company then has access to. That environment with them because it shares innovation and ideas and just, and it creates this kind of knowledge exchange. Which the, which just creates like a, a breeding ground for for yeah, for knowledge learning and innovation.
[00:43:54] That's really interesting cuz it's a. It is an ecosystem, but then it's like an exchange, isn't it? It's more like this kind of system of different organizations joined in some way exchanging knowledge, or exchanging resources, or exchanging, yeah, whatever it might be that they open. They're open to collaborating or sharing.
[00:44:13] That's cool.
[00:44:14] Dieter: Yeah, I think it's a big. Mindset shift, around I want to keep everything for myself versus I'm willing to share so that I can also receive. And I think that is going to be important because some of the challenges that organizations will have to deal with can't be solved, by one organization.
[00:44:29] So for example, I think the huge skills shortages that we are seeing can't be solved by one organization, can't be solved by one industry. It's not going to be solved by governments in isolation. So to really find a viable solution there, people need to start clubbing in together and saying, okay. You know what?
[00:44:45] We need X skillset for our industry to grow in future. How are we going to club together to start developing people in that particular way? Whether they then start shifting between organizations, it becomes less of a, the banking sector is quite famous for this. You get your banking passport.
[00:44:59] I work for bank A, and then I go to bank B and to bank C and into bank D. But all that happens is the pool doesn't grow, it just means it shifts and moves around between, the five or six players. That's the big players in that particular sector. So I think there is this different type of thinking to say, how can we collectively think about some of the problems that's bigger than just ourselves, but that solving will be to the benefit of everyone involved.
[00:45:23] And yeah, that's interesting because that is, to your point, it's knowledge exchange, but it's also pooling of resource on the one side, but also then pooling of. Of effort and focus, and I think there's a real opportunity there for us to have some, meaningful impact on the human being, but also to the benefit of the businesses that they engage with, for long-term sustainability.
[00:45:44] Steve: Quite reminds me of this, there's a book called The Cathedral and the Bazaar, and it was brought to my attention by by a chap called Key over a studio Banana in Switzerland. And they do yeah, they do interior interior design for, businesses, but mainly from a cultural point of view.
[00:46:01] And that it's really interesting cuz if you visualize a cathedral. And it's very it's very systemic. It's very, consistent. It's very organized. And then you have a bazaar which is then, this marketplace, which is just, oh, if you're looking for apples, oh, go and spit sides.
[00:46:16] They're really good at apples and it's much crazier. It's noisier, it's smelly, but it's this exchange of knowledge, it's exchange of. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's an exchange of expertise. Everybody's got their focus and expertise, but actually they're constantly sharing and bartering and that kind of stuff.
[00:46:30] I dunno why it come, it just that deconstruction of thinking of this kind of very, kind of cathedral feel from a space point of view into one that is much more open market and sharing. So I think that's that just came to mind. Thought I'd share that one. It's apparently a book way ahead of its time.
[00:46:45] Dieter: No, I love it. I think that, the sharing and the experience economy is where I think we are going to go. I think and I know, whenever we talk sharing economy, people, quote things like Uber, et cetera, I think it goes a lot more beyond that because we've thought about sharing assets we should think about sharing thoughts and ideas and, human capacity as well.
[00:47:04] And I think that's really interesting just to respond to your Cathedral point. What I think does happen though, it then forces people to really think about, but what is our, for employees, what is our unique selling proposition for an employee in a, in an open market that has a lot more flexibility in choice because it's not just permanent employees.
[00:47:21] I think in future that has to choose you as an organization. It's also going to become, gig workers. There will be companies that gig workers just say, you know what, I've got enough. Proposals in my inbox that I don't need to work for you or take the job because you're just not a great, client to partner with.
[00:47:35] And I think that places a very interesting dynamic in the non-traditional talent market for organizations to think about.
[00:47:41] Steve: Yeah, that, that's I call it liquid workforce that li we've become so much more liquid and evolving and it's yeah. And also like how do you design the experience? How do you design onboarding for gig workers? That's, it's just the intentionality of, for that audience or those groups is is super interesting.
[00:47:58] Very cool. Hang on. I did have another question. I can edit this bit. That's it. So there was another thing just to go on just to build on what you just shared around also this, I've heard it a few times around human centric design, but humanity centric design also. You touched on this thing around, I think for me it's Going beyond the organization, that we're actually thinking about humanity as a whole and this thing around resources and shared resources.
[00:48:25] Cuz surely that's also good for our planet and humanity. Where are you? I just wanted to just quickly riff on that with you, just around that kind of, that bigger purpose driven piece outside of that kind of context of just internal organization focus.
[00:48:38] Dieter: Yeah, I love that. I think Steve we need to start thinking broader when, whenever we design an employee experience, we've sometimes thought about who's the human being in the workplace, and we've thought about who's the organization where the context where this takes place. I think there's a third part to that to say, is this good for the human?
[00:48:54] Is this good for the organization? But is this also good for the community and the structure within which it operates and evolves? So let me make it really practical. When we design a benefit experience, it can't be to the detriment of. The broader external environment, and I know it sounds like a very obvious thing to say, but I sometimes think we don't consider that, that type of element.
[00:49:13] How do we think differently about those things? I think there is a strong, and it's already happening, but I think there will be even stronger scrutiny to organizations in terms of, what are some of these types of things that they do and what is the impact beyond themselves. And I think in the e ex space, it's a beautiful space to start bringing that type of thinking in because I think you can really ignite to real change at that level when you intentionally design, not just for.
[00:49:37] The human being. But as I said earlier, the human being in their context, in the organization, in the environment within which they find themselves, which will be the community and the society within which we operate. The question should be, how are organizations contributing? And how will they continue to do and I think some organizations are doing some really cool stuff in the communities where they are at and acknowledge that they are key players in not only the survival, but the sustainability of the communities within which they operate. But I think there is going to be more scrutiny and more of that going forward.
[00:50:05] And I think the EK space can contribute.
[00:50:07] Steve: Or there is a future? There is a generation or generations coming through where demands on that are already increasing and I can only see it get getting more for sure, without a doubt. Yeah. Cool. Dita, I've really enjoyed this conversation just to close Listen, I guess some, yeah any data recommendations or yeah, just something maybe a bit concrete to share out that might just benefit somebody listening around future HR or where to get started actually.
[00:50:32] Cause I still think there's a lot of people just getting started. You know this. Yeah. I think where we, sometimes you. You can assume that everybody's doing these things, but ultimately a lot of people are still alone, under-resourced, lacking the methods struggling with the mindset. So just, yeah, any kind of party and wisdom.
[00:50:49] Wisdom you'd like to share around that piece.
[00:50:52] Dieter: I think Steve may be some advice to get started. I think the first one is, acknowledge the fact that you are not alone and that there's a broader HR community that you can tap into. But to do you need to take the first step. I find a lot of HR professionals, especially earlier in their career, they don't tap into HR as a community beyond their own organization.
[00:51:10] That's a mistake. I think you have to tap into the broader community because maybe somebody else has done something that you can adapt or adopt or learn from in terms of your own context. So reach out to colleagues, the HR community in general, and that's my experience is actually extremely helpful and very forthcoming in terms of sharing.
[00:51:27] But you need to ask, because they also dunno what it is that you. That you need and you require. I think that's the first one. The second one is don't fall into the trap of just doing things because we've always done them. Develop that curious mindset and go and take a step back and say, why am I really doing this?
[00:51:41] What is the value of this? And what would happen if I stopped doing this? And I think that's a very good question to ask for a lot of HR practices, that we are currently busy with. And the other one is go and learn from other people. Go spend time in the business that you're in, not in the HR team itself, but go and if you're working in a call set environment, go spend the day in the call center.
[00:51:59] Go see what the life is like of the employees in your organization. The better you understand them as human beings, the better you can be. Of value to them as part of the HR solutions that you bring to the table. Yeah, on the more practical side, there's a lot of cool resources.
[00:52:13] They're welcome also to, to share, we'll provide some links to that as well. But, I think there's a, just get started with these three things and I think that will put you on the way as well.
[00:52:21] Steve: Amazing. Amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much. And we will share resources cuz I know I, HR has a lot of good stuff let's we'll put that on the show page for people to to check out as well. But Dita, thank you so great to connect the power of LinkedIn. I love it. But also, yeah, just to meet, like-minded people, we're all on our own journey trying to create impact in this space.
[00:52:39] And yeah, I knew this would be a great conversation. So thanks for thanks for joining.
[00:52:43] Dieter: No, thanks for having me, Steve. And yeah, really enjoyed your thinking and your thoughts and ideas, so it was really enjoyable and I, yeah, really love to hear your views on things as well.
[00:52:50] Steve: Yeah. Good stuff. Thanks, mate. Thank you.
[00:52:52] Dieter: so much. Have a good one.
[00:52:53] Steve: Thanks.