Ep. 049 - Malin Moezzi - Augment tech, data and human for better interviews

 

The humble job interview. Did you know that the first offical job assessment was creating in 1921 by Thomas Edison who designed a written test to evaluate candidates' knowledge. Since then it’s safe to say, the interview has gone various developments. But at the core, it’s two humans coming together. Where so much is going on from a psychological, bias and human perspective. 

But it’s not until you really lean in and take a forensic lens that you truly start to understand where things can go seriously wrong. Especially from an experience and employer brand perspective. 

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EP. 049 Transcription

[00:00:00] Steve: Malin, welcome to the experienced designers. It's yeah. And so great to you that you've agreed to join and we have such an interesting topic to explore together today. But before we dive into that who are you, where are you?

And. What do you do?

[00:00:25] Malin: Who am I? That's like the biggest question you can ever

[00:00:28] Steve: Let's start big.

[00:00:29] Malin: am I really that's such an extensional existential question. No, but my name is Marlin actually, as we said, and I'm working right now at a startup company as a psychologist and head of people science. And we have created a platform to actually have a better interview experience for both recruiters, for hiring managers, and also to improve the interview experience for candidates where we're trying to mix together the evidence based research, the candidate experience, but also the user experience.

So hopefully we'll revolutionize how you do interviews. And that's what I do now. And I've been working with organizational psychology and strategic HR for the past seven years. Especially like focusing on recruitment,

[00:01:14] Steve: because we're going to talk about a very specific thing today, which I love. So we can hopefully get into some really good concrete opportunities for people to really learn and take something from this conversation today. Just in terms of psychology, just talk me through that, why, what, obviously obviously an interest of yours in terms of the discipline area.

Tell us a little bit more about that in terms of the yeah what drew you to that area of work or indeed the topic and the area.

[00:01:41] Malin: Yeah. Also such a long story because I started off wanting to work as a psychologist working with with kids and with more with that, like people like youth or kids. And then once I started studying, I realized you could work with organizational psychology and I started my studies when I was 27.

So I had already worked for. Several years in different organizations, having different type of leaders, different type of management, and really found that it's such. It's such an important thing to have a good leader. It makes such a difference to have a good leader or a bad leader to have more of a flat organization or a very hierarchy one.

And so I realized it would be so interesting to as psychologists work from the other end to really improve leadership and make people feel better and do better. better at work and make organizations more healthier. And so that's where I started to find my interest in that. And then it just, I realized also once I started working with a company called Assessio, which is the Nordic leading assessment company in Sweden, and I learned so much statistic about discrimination and how tough it is today.

In orders of ethnicity, we discriminate on age, how you look, and I've always realized that we have issues with both racism and also bias and prejudice and discrimination in this country, but I didn't realize how bad it was when it comes to recruitment. And so this really aligned with my values and made me really.

Create a bigger interest in this topics to talk about diversity, inclusion and really fair assessments. And yeah,

[00:03:26] Steve: a mission. Loving it. Okay. You found your niche. I love that. It's very important. I love

[00:03:32] Malin: I did.

[00:03:33] Steve: yeah, I can feel the passion as you were talking. Actually, it was great. So let's delve in because I'm absolutely certain we're going to, we are definitely going to touch some of those topics as well as part of the, certainly on the buyer side and some of the, I guess some of the intrinsic things that we have.

Built into us as humans in many regards, which is obviously, part of our kind of upbringing and our experience of life, regardless of age or where you are. But today we're going to be talking about augmenting tech data. and human to create better interviews. And I love this because we're at such a, we're at such a poignant moment in time right now, particularly with we've gone through this crazy period of AI of course, and obviously that's going to undoubtedly have So much of an impact on the world and us as humans.

And so I'm just curious as well from a data point of view. Yes, there is this kind of the tech piece which is always, we know is accelerating. But this data, how we're using data. And also I guess, the human element of this. We can't lose ourselves inside of these things either. And then wrapping that all very neatly in a bow.

Focusing specifically on interviewing. This moment in time. I love this, right? This moment in time when two humans come together and all of the stuff, the melting pot and things and the circumstances and scenarios that come together at that moment in time and what can go right and what can go horribly wrong at the same time.

[00:05:01] Malin: Horribly

[00:05:01] Steve: love it. Love it.

[00:05:04] Malin: Horribly wrong, yeah, that's the word for it.

[00:05:08] Steve: Go.

[00:05:09] Malin: gonna dive right in, because it's such an interesting topic, because because we're talking data, right? And I think it's just the word data is so interesting to just talk about, because I think that's where some of the resistance comes from. Because we use words as data, we talk about mechanical decisions, we talk about AI, which feels like a robot making decisions, and all of these words...

They have impact on how we interpret the meaning and the purpose of why we do what we do. And basically data means information. There's nothing it's not a mystery. It's information. And even if you're using the word data or information, what you're doing when you're recruiting is you're gathering information about a candidate.

To decide whether or not you want to hire this person. So basically you're not doing anything different from what you've always done. You're still gathering information, but having a data driven process as it's called means you're more structured into choosing what data to collect and actually have standardized methods and tools.

To actually assess the data in a much better way. So that's what it means working data driven. And I think a lot of the resistance comes because you don't really realize what data driven means. Because one of the things I constantly hear when I talk about this is that, Okay, but all these recruiters working with tests and data driven methods, They're trying to reduce people into numbers.

And that's not really true. That's a big misconception. What we want to do is we want to gather the same information that we have always tried to gather, but we have better tools to do it now. Like in Sweden, we've used a cover letter for so many years to understand more of who you are as a person, what your interests are, and what motivates you.

And we're still trying to gather the same information, but with better tools, because we know that the cover letter is basically trash, because it's so subjective. It's subjective by the person writing it, and it's super subjective on the person reading it. Because you're interpreting things differently, and you're looking for different details that's gonna align with who you are.

And you have no standardized... and measurements on what you're looking for in this cover letter. And I think it's so important just like to make what is data? What does data driven mean? And because I think if people understand what that means, that's like the first start of us even

[00:07:36] Steve: Two questions, I think on the data piece as well, for those that are also crafting the content for a cover letter, or providing the data or information, then if you're doing it in a much more structured way, then it creates more possibilities for that individual to stand out, to differentiate, or indeed, obviously, in conjunction with others to be chosen.

A quick question on the tech or the tools that you mentioned. How have they evolved, and where have they evolved from this traditional environment to where we are today? And what have you seen?

[00:08:14] Malin: Okay, so if we start at the beginning because usually you send in your resume or your CV and your cover letter And today that has changed by using like applicant tracking system that helps you have Selection questions so you can choose to have three questions That you want to measure or you want to gather information to use that instead because then you can have three questions For example, do you have a driver's license?

Yes or no? Yeah, do you have a doctor's degree or are you a licensed psychologist? Like all the requirements that you actually have to have the requirements that you need to have in order for you to proceed Those are the only information points where we want to that's the only information that we need in the first step.

And so what you're doing with, when you're throwing away the cover letter and when you're, you don't have to throw away the resume, you can just pick it out from the beginning and you can place it later on in the process. And so then first just select on the criterias needed. And to really just make sure like all you need to have are these three needs need to have and then you move forward and you should probably use personality assessment and problem solving assessments to really understand what behaviors to expect from this person, because we know that experience and knowledge and things that you have trained for can be super relevant and it is important it's it would be helpful.

Really bad for me to say that it isn't because I have my psychology degree and also I have my experience working with strategic HR. I say these things because they matter, but it's really hard to measure that quality. When you have a cover letter, because five years of experience doesn't necessarily mean that you have the right experience.

Having an education doesn't mean that all people with the same education will behave in the same way or use that education and experience in the same way. So first we need to understand what your potential is. So what are your personality traits? What are your cognitive abilities to really understand what to expect from you?

And not to have like high cutoff limits saying only the smartest and the most conscientious people need to proceed. It's not. It's not made for that. It's made to understand who you are and what to expect. Who is going to show off the most set of behaviors that are needed in this role? Because in this role, maybe you need to work well with others and you need to be able to plan things ahead.

And those are the criterias needed on a personal level. And another role might more be focused on you need to be able to work really hard at a really fast pace and you need to be open to new experience because this is a fast paced environment where things change all day all the time you need to be able to do that you need to be motivated.

by that. And then once you have that data, you should do a structured interview. And I emphasize on the structure because very few people are still doing structured interviews. Most traditional methods are unstructured, meaning it's more of a conversation like you and I are having right now. We're just talking.

And I think that's also the biggest reason for people not being able to use the structured method because We know how to have a conversation. We all do. Even if you're extroverted or introverted, you know how to have a conversation with someone. You know how to ask a question, you know how to answer a question.

And this makes us think that as long as you've had an interview before, as long as you've had a conversation, who wouldn't be able to have or conduct an interview? Easy peasy, right? Because we're humans and we interact all the time. And that makes us feel more like our gut feeling is this is a better conversation because it's natural, it's flowing, it's comfortable, it's not stiff and it's not pre premeditated and everything.

But then we know that we don't gather the relevant information. And there are also a lot of statistics saying that the interviewing interviewer does most of the talking. So it can be between 70 to 90 percent of the time spent in an interview is actually the interviewer talking.

That's just bad because we're doing an interview to gather information about the candidate, not the

[00:12:29] Steve: a very common demonstration of weakness in or lack of skill in interviewing. It's a very common thing. What's the risks when, like from a data point of view or from a performance perspective around interviewing? where there's a still remains such a it and this has been the same genuinely for decades.

I started in recruiting in the late 90s. So genuinely, this is still here today, which is amazing to see and not. So I'm just curious. Yeah, completely. And that's why I'm really curious on this topic because we are in this age of data and tech and this ability to leverage this.

What is it now available to us so much more than what was, certainly before is what's the difference between somebody who is still doing traditional way of hiring from an interview perspective who is still. Stuck in their way of, no, this is how I've always done it. This has always served me well.

What's some of the risks compared to somebody in that situation compared to one that has fully embraced the augmentation of leveraging data and tech and enabling, using that as an enabler to enhance that interview process?

[00:13:45] Malin: at the two biggest risks is that you miss out on your top talent because you're probably not going to hire someone that's going to fail. Like most people know how to do their job. They can read what is expected of them. They can learn what is expected and they could probably do good enough. Most people do.

A lot, not a lot of people get fired because they can't do their job. However, You might miss out on the person who would have done more than average, who would have been your top talent, who would have been, who would have excelled into something other, and to really made your team and your productivity thrive.

So that's one big risk. Not saying that a failed recruitment process is not you hiring someone that you have to fire within three weeks. A bad recruitment outcome is you missing out on the best potential out there and wasting talent so that's one risk but the other risk which is Like really tremendous and it hurts both your company But it also hurts the candidates enormously is that we have really high problems with discrimination because we know that for example in sweden you have an 80 percent lower chance of Proceeding in a process from CV screening if you have a non Swedish sounding name, and that's a huge number and also this specific number 80%.

It comes from a study that was made in 2014 and I make a point of reusing that data from 2014 because nothing has happened. There's been no change when it comes to how we treat people with non with foreign sounding name and especially men with Arab names. In Sweden is being extremely discriminated against and then we have people over the age of 55 We have women that are being discriminated people who are overweight are extremely discriminated people with neurodiversity is extremely Discriminated against and so I would say that's a big risk And I think you don't really realize how much that hurts your Employer brand and your brand in general because especially today We have all of these digital channels to spread this information if you're not getting treated fairly as a candidate You're going to talk to your friends You're going to talk to everyone you meet and this will hurt your brand and your employer brand Because this candidate might not be the best one this time, but it might be a future candidate It might be a future partner a future customer and so on so Yeah, those are the two biggest risks with using

[00:16:14] Steve: I've heard ageism in Sweden is quite a big one as well. You mentioned it there. Yeah.

[00:16:19] Malin: Yeah, it is.

[00:16:21] Steve: Yeah. How do we change that? As you shared this, it's such a big, it's a big shift and also calls into question So much around inclusivity, belonging, obviously diversity. Without the inclusivity, it doesn't matter how much diversity you have anyway.

It doesn't matter. 

[00:16:40] Malin: It's just

[00:16:40] Steve: What needs to change? What needs to change to start create, cause we're in a tight, one of the tightest talent markets. in the world right now. However you look at it, we've got this weird paradigm of, layoffs in the tech industry, but then lowest unemployment.

And yet we've got these kind of, Yeah, we've got these talent groups that are there ready and have so much to, contribute to an organization. What's what have you seen in the market where organizations or people have really leveraged this in a way? And yeah, and seen a, and taken advantage of.

I see that as a positive, as an opportunity. In my mind, it's like that you have talent pools there to engage, but it's going to require you if you've got a very specific culture or a very specific way of seeing things. It's gonna require some shift internally as them on an individual level, but obviously culturally what do you see?

What's your thoughts on that?

[00:17:31] Malin: I think there are two ways to handle it. The first thing is that you have to realize that you can't get rid of bias, right? Like we can't not be biased because that's part of being human. Our brain is wired to make shortcuts, to make easy decisions to make a decision on based on as little information as possible to decide who's In group, out group, who's a threat what food you should eat, what food is poisonous, what's the shortest way home, and so on.

How can we save time and energy? So that's how our brain is wired, and I think we just need to accept the fact that's the way it is. And we can't re we can reduce the effects of these biases, but we can't remove them completely. We will never be unbiased, and we will never have unbiased recruitment processes, but we can reduce the bias, and we can reduce discrimination by using more objective...

tools and methods. And I think that's one part to just accept that no, you can't train away your bias. If you were to have like cognitive bias trainings to have the really effect, you need that training like once a week or once a month, or at least you need to have a short training before every recruitment process to have a top of mind.

Otherwise you just see the effects right after the training and then you see it slowly. Vanishing and because our system one in our brain is always going to triumph the system to where we have gathered more information and learn how to avoid bias. And I think that's just just realize you need help.

You need tools. You can't do it. You can't say, Oh, I've done this training and oh, I have these values. And that's really interesting because in Sweden. We're seen as this tall up until a few years ago Maybe at least we were seen as this tolerant country with open arms like open to any type of cultural Differences and stuff and I think we as Swedes also we value our Tradition of being open minded and being tolerant, and I think we think that those values triumphs our bias Which they don't and I think that's a big obstacle.

So it doesn't make you a bad person It doesn't make you not have these values of being Open for diversity and stuff. It doesn't make you bad person It just makes you human and you just have to accept that

Get help And so that's part of like how we can affect the recruitment process And then you have the other thing when it comes to diversity and inclusion, as you said, because yeah, fine.

You can have diversity. You can look at a team and they look different fine, but you need to include them in different things and different actions to make them feel like they belong and to get more perspectives into our team. And that's on such a bigger level. You need that to be a strategic.

Decision on every level, in every part of your company. It can't just be a question for HR or for some team managers. You need that going top to bottom. You need that in top management. Management, and you need to have that spill into your. general culture, because it starts with the leadership, having an inclusive leadership, having a high levels of psychological safety.

Those are the biggest factors into having your organization really focus on diversity and inclusion. And so it needs to be a part of the overall strategy and not just something for some teams and some positions. It needs to be included every step of the way.

[00:21:01] Steve: Huge. Yeah, you can't don't just go in high for diversity. Yeah, it's absolutely huge, especially, if culturally it from a Swedish perspective, it's grounded in kind of a slightly more narrow perspective or view. And obviously, it's evolution, but it's also as I say, I reiterate, it's just so much missed opportunity.

It's, yeah, absolutely huge. Let's dive into the manager perspective for a second, because I'm really curious around this kind of in the moment piece, because I think. If any recruiters are listening or anyone in a TA function or worked in TA, they'll know that in their general hiring manager population, there's going to be, a 20 percent who are pretty good they get it, they give them, very clear instructions about what their needs are, where, those types of things that, the good inputs for a good job requisition, a good job order.

And then you've probably got, I don't know, a good 50%, you're always here or there trying to nail down somewhere or trying to, Heard the cat somehow, and then there's probably a good 30 percent that are absolutely, absolute terrors. How can we support managers more? What can organizations do to enable managers in a to, yeah, to deliver a better experience, to create a better opportunity to, unearth talent, to support them?

Because individually, if we look at them an empathetic lens. They're humans too. They have their own biases. No one teaches this stuff in school, like how to interview effectively or, none. And you're, maybe first time managers as well are thrust into this kind of environment. You're having, you have a budget responsibility or a staff budget responsibility.

You're having to then hire all of that stuff in that melting pot as a hiring manager on top of, sorry to keep going, but on top of the need to manage performance, coach, onboard new hires, all of these demands that they have. This is a poignant and very important skill to have interviewing because your success is massively dependent on the quality of the team in which you hire.

So what can we do? Where's some of the starting points? How can we help them? What are we, how can we enable

[00:23:07] Malin: So I often say that hiring managers don't make for good

[00:23:10] Steve: them?

[00:23:11] Malin: And this isn't to say that they're bad at it. It's just to say that they are supposed to be better on other things. They are supposed to be experts on other things in other areas, which they hopefully are. So if they. wanted to be recruiters, they would have been recruiters, they would have chosen that job, that role, because that would have been aligned probably with their values, their interests, and maybe their personal traits. And so maybe they're not supposed to recruit that much. But still, we have hiring managers, they usually have one interview, or at least a meeting, or they're still part of the process. And they're part of the decision. So instead of trying to have them be the expert, just have them be Where they need to be and give them the tools and the resources that they lack.

And then they're never going to have time basically to go to all of these different trainings. It would be fantastic if every hiring manager was an interview expert or a recruiting expert, but they're not, they're experts at other areas. Meaning that they're not going to really excel in understanding.

methods and the techniques for how to conduct a better interview. It's not going to feel like natural to them. So that's one thing that we really want to support with our platform, ASKA is that we really want to have a platform that provides you with all the questions you need, the structure and the tools you need to conduct and score your interview better and then help you with transcribing.

the entire interview so that you have your notes so you don't have to also try to multitask and both listen ask questions that you've never heard before and also try to write down the information that you think you should write down because that's super hard so we need that's where we need the tools to make them better because they're never gonna have the skill and the experience and training that's going to make them better.

Because if they did, they wouldn't be working as hiring managers, they would have other jobs. And I think that's what we need when it comes to interviews, especially use better tools for that to create guides and to create a better structure on you to score the interview. Because even recruiters or HR and talent acquisitions have a hard time.

Scoring an interview because it's super hard and it's super hard also to gather information, taking notes and doing it all in the same time. So imagine it being that hard for people doing it on a day to day basis. Imagine how impossible it is

[00:25:49] Steve: especially just to it, like an interview is like they're just they're literally standing on stage immediately, probably from the back of another meeting they've had, which is probably something business related and then having to get on stage and go from straight into that focus of an interview.

It's a big challenge. I like the piece there because I think AI and I was reading some stuff recently around There's some tools that are starting to really, take take a grip now and providing value into the into the market. And I, there's a few that I've seen that are.

enabling particularly from an interview perspective to concentrate on the interview, to be more present, to focus on the response of that interview while it's being transcribed, and then it providing a summary which you can then use to then summarize and use at the end in real time. And I think this is where this augmentation, I think, is really interesting because if we're able to...

I think it creates a gap for me is the tech supports and augments in a way that enables this like focus for that one human to another. And therefore, how do we enable that hiring manager to be more focused or to ask the right questions and to be an active listener without having to worry about anything else?

And I think that's. We're getting into fine margins of stuff, but I think that's what's actually needed in order to uplift this kind of quality of interview interactions.

[00:27:12] Malin: it is. And that's what exactly what we've been focusing on. And that's one of the prime points that I try to make is that because. Being data driven using tests, using assessments, using AI. All of this is what enables us to be more focused on the human interaction. It makes you a better listener.

And for those recruiters and interviewers who actually have the technique and skills of being an active listening, because that's a skill to, to train in as well you can excel using your. Active listening skills if you're also typing and writing notes because you can't do it both at the same time no matter how Experienced or even the best experts can't do this because no matter how excelled you are at multitasking You can't listen and type at the same time You will miss out on important information and you will lose focus and you will lose that Contact with your candidate giving them a better interview experience And the same thing when you're using assessments and processes yeah, you're using a tool, but you're using a tool to gather more information about who this person really is, not who they think they should be, not who do you think you they should answer based on your advertisement, and so on.

You're getting information about who somebody really is, but what really drives them and motivates them, and it reduces The time you spent on screening and trying to read through resumes, it reduces time on manual labor, so that you have more time to spend with the candidates, and especially with the right candidates, because you have better data to decide who is going to have More probability of being a good match.

So you have more time to spend on the analysis of what needs to be recruited. And you have more time to spend with your top candidates. And then you have even more time on onboarding. And really just having more quality time. And being focused on the real human experience. And being more

[00:29:18] Steve: is really cool. Yeah, and this is coming into, this is coming into my world now from an experience design perspective. And it's top of mind because I did I was, I did a keynote last week and I included this. This is so interesting. We are moving more and more now into the experience economy in this, in, in HR and generally in people functions.

And what you're talking about there from a time perspective, it's really interesting, is. Like technology is enabling us to do, it's like you're providing a service. Okay. So it's more like a service. It's time well saved. It's about making it quicker, easier, and faster. It's about finding the ways to streamline and saving time and then experiences by their characteristic and definition is time well spent.

So where are the moments where the experience is delivered? Typically in a human to human interaction? Where possible is, where are those moments where you then spend the time to deliver an experience? And that is where the, you stand on stage as a hiring manager with a potential candidate, and you're able to have that interaction in a meaningful structured and also organic 'cause.

I think it's important to have a. Blended approach to that. There's a structure and I think that's important, but I think also in that immediate interaction where you're pitching the business, because it's still a sell process where you're pitching the mission you're on or the strategy you're trying to achieve.

And this is how they're going to contribute to that. And it's done in a real kind of passionate way that because you are obviously, you should be very connected to your business and your job. That, yeah, you hope so that it's coming through in an authentic way. And I think that's if there's ways to do that and blend that and to enable that then yeah, it creates such a great opportunity for hiring managers.

[00:30:58] Malin: that is because I think you need to look at the interview has two purposes, right? The one purpose is to assess your candidate, but the other purpose is to attract the candidate. because we know. that the interview actually reflects the company. It reflects the HR, the talent acquisition, it reflects on your leadership and how you treat your staff.

So it's a direct connection to how you experience how you will be treated if you get the job, right? And so being able to use these tools to help you conduct a better interview And to assess the candidate better frees up and enables you to also work more on your attraction Because it's going to help you with your employer brand, right?

Because there's so many like interesting data when it comes to how much the interview actually damages the employer brand, because there are like numbers, like 46 percent of candidates has actually turned down a job based on. And there are also numbers that says 83 percent of top talents, they have changed their mind about a company after negative experience in the interview. So a company they beforehand had a lot of positive ideas about and really had this interest about, a bad interview. makes them change their mind. Fortunately, it's the opposite. If you have a bad feeling about this company, doesn't sound really interesting, I don't know, I haven't heard that much good about it. If you have a positive interview, that can also change your mind. So it works both ways. Good interview experience? Yay! Employer brand.

Bad interview experience? So it has a direct effect right now at your attraction level on your employer brand. And I think it's really important for hiring managers and also recruiters to understand how much they can damage the candidate pool and the employer brand by not being focused on

[00:32:56] Steve: Yeah, I think there's a, there's this there's always this battle with TA and hiring managers. It continues even today in many companies. You go back to the point of earlier about hiring managers not being recruiters and what they don't see is an external market in because recruiters are in the external market daily, networking, headhunting, gathering whatever means in terms of attracting talent.

And there's just this disconnect. It's more of a, people come in and say what can you do for me? It's still, for me, the sell continues from the point of application through to every interaction. Even when they've been hired and they're in a pre board phase, you have to keep selling.

You have to don't think because they've, accepted and they're in a three month notice period, there is 12 weeks for plenty to happen. So it's still for me, it's like this continuous experiential thinking of thinking in a journey. Where are these little moments of these interactions to think, okay, how do we deliver a good experience?

How do we sell? And then how do we assess? And then how do we continually do that through the process? So important. So important. Yeah.

[00:34:04] Malin: super important. That's where the inclusion starts already in pre boarding. If you don't feel included before you start, it's hard to feel included afterwards as well. So pre boarding, on boarding is major. Because as you say, in 12 weeks, a lot can happen. And 12 weeks of bad on boarding as well, a lot can happen.

Just because you've signed a new job doesn't mean

[00:34:26] Steve: No. And also as well.

[00:34:28] Malin: And we see this, especially when it comes to top talent because they move around more frequently. And if you, there are, I think the numbers like 73 percent of high performers. They also leave a position if they have a bad leadership. And so it's called toxic leadership because it's an American word. We don't use that in Sweden as much because it's really charged, but yeah, like toxic leadership traits will have 73 percent of your high performers leave. In a short amount of time, and it also affects your productivity majorly. So it's so important to really focus on hiring the top talent, but also hiring the right leaders and really working with your leadership because people leave, they don't have to stay and accept everything

[00:35:13] Steve: could do a pub.

[00:35:13] Malin: anymore.

They value their work life balance much more than

[00:35:19] Steve: We could do a pod just on leadership alone. How has How has

COVID impacted interviewing? Because we've obviously moved to a much more digital landscape. And that, I, I was brought up, genuinely, I was brought up in the good old recruitment school of, I started in medical recruitment and then went into custom experience type recruitment industry and I grew up in, I was, I sharpened my teeth, as you say, very much on that traditional approach and I love face to face.

I'm a much more of a preference of face to face in real life, but of course that's not always possible now. How has that perhaps supported the business case for being more objective and having. More of a system in place to support.

[00:36:13] Malin: yes. Yeah, I'm glad you asked this actually, because this is super interesting. So of course, we saw a major shift during the pandemic to digital recruitment processes and digital interviews. And there were challenges. I always like when I have my interview trainings, I always say, okay, so we have some challenges, hashtag you're on mute.

Because there are challenges like you have the screen being like you. You're sitting too low down too far back. There are so many challenges like having a bad connection and everything. So challenges with digital interviews, yes, but the things that we gained are amazing. Okay. So we became so much more objective, like dramatically objective because we reduced so many physical attributes that don't have anything to do with your future work performance. Like the handshake for once. Everybody can relate to having oh, a loose hand grip. Oh ooh, that's not a, that's not a firm handshake. That's not really good. Or someone being too firm, like that's an aggressive person. Like you have so many of these physical attributes that really made you that affected your decision.

And so there are so many studies being made on that says that most interviewers they make up their decision about a candidate about 15 minutes into the interview. And some surveys say that interviewers make up their mind as fast as 7 minutes in. So meaning 7 minutes in a real life meeting It's not even the actual interview.

It's saying, hi, welcome, do you want some coffee or some tea? And then you have chitchat on your way to coffee tea. And then you have some chitchat before you sit down and conduct the actual assessment. And you may, if you have a good introduction to your interview, you, by seven minutes, you haven't even asked the first question.

We know that digital interviews have reduced so many physical attributes, so many irrelevant information that you might gather on this promenade from the door to the coffee. So we have reduced a lot of irrelevant information, both physical, but also oh, what do you do on your day to day time, and stuff like that.

So we have become much more objective, and we have become much more effective as well. Yeah. And especially when it comes to the candidate side, because it's so much more easier to apply for a job and to conduct an interview if you don't have to get to the interview place and then get from point A to point B, it takes maybe 30, 45 minutes.

That's 30, 45 minutes times two. And that means you have to take time off work to do and not everybody can do that. And it makes it really hard for us to find and be

[00:38:55] Steve: Yeah, it's a good reminder of that, isn't it? Because I think time, the time aspect for candidates, having to take half a day for interviews, or suddenly a dentist, or whatever excuse they put in, but also that presents opportunities for, to engage talent, and to meet them where they're at any given moment.

And also, if they're working from home, more exclusively, they can, Perhaps fit that into their schedule much more easily. So that's opportunities. That's really interesting. And I definitely support that. That it removes, it does remove a huge element of our decision making actually, whether good or bad.

There's some, possibly some good elements in there as well as some elements that don't serve us so well. But again, as a perhaps of a structured process, it can, it forms a more objective moment that may then move on to a more in real life meeting thereafter. Okay. So just in terms of,

[00:39:49] Malin: I'm gonna help you a bit because I know I feel like you love that You love the face to face interaction and I'm gonna say I recommend the digital interview for most interviews Especially if you're an external recruiter, there's no reason for you to meet this person, right? There's no reason for you at all to meet this person.

However, hiring managers, maybe, like the last interview in your process, the hiring manager or HR, they want to meet the candidate, but the candidate wants to meet you. So I don't think we're going to exclude all physical interviews, because, the candidate's decision is highly subjective.

And so even if we are supposed to be super objective, the candidates are never going to be super objective. They're going to be subjective. They want to meet their future team leader. They want to meet their future co workers. They want to step into the office to get a feel of the culture.

So I don't think we need to exclude them. We just need to make sure, if we have two or three interviews, They don't all have to be face to face. One or two can be digital because it helps us be more objective early on in the stage. And then you can save the physical meeting for the last interview.

[00:40:58] Steve: I

[00:40:58] Malin: you can still meet them face to face if you

[00:41:00] Steve: I've got two more, I've got two more can of worms to open up while we're together. Okay. The first one is I saw a post recently and there are now in the UK, there are a number of organizations, I think Coors Brewery was one of those I seem to remember, who are now removing completely CVs.

As part of people's application. Are we going to see the death of the CV? Finally? Do you think that's on the horizon at some point in the future? Cool.

[00:41:31] Malin: I don't think the depth of it, but we're gonna see a major change in how we use it and so for some roles And there is no need for a resume. Especially if you are like for young people with that don't really have an experience of you if you're newly graduated like All you need is like your diploma to be able to apply for this job.

You don't need a resume. So there are some levels of roles that won't need the CV at all. However, I would say in some parts having information on someone's experience and what they've done previously can still be super interesting. But I would say instead of screening on CV as the first step in your process, maybe you move it to the back you can have your screening questions, you can have your assessments, maybe you can have your first structured interview, and then look at, because then maybe you have three top candidates left.

Okay, so these three people, and they had the similar match when we did the assessments, they both did really, they all did really well on the interview, so we still need maybe some more information to differentiate. And maybe one of these three also has information in their resume that could be super relevant and maybe add to their like Competency backpack or competency pyramid or however you want to visualize competency.

So I don't know. I don't think it's gonna be Like, totally excluded. I just think we're gonna change the way we value the CV and how early on we screen on it. that's the

[00:43:10] Steve: It's definitely.

[00:43:10] Malin: thing to understand that like you, you don't need it for all roles and you don't need it in the

[00:43:14] Steve: The other question I had as well was around. When you're scaling a hiring, a new hiring process I've come across lots of TA functions who rejig their the way in which they're assessing. There's a thing in my mind that also says that if everybody does the same tests, consistently because of course they want to scale it and they want to enable this to get volume through and that makes sense.

Is that also missing? Is there a balance in this? Is that we're also perhaps, discluding people who might not be good at say a visual logic test, but actually are still very good at something else? And I don't know, is it, are we trying to then squeeze like a volume through a consistent funnel?

Are we the other side? And what's some of the challenges with that, 

[00:43:59] Malin: I would say there is challenge with that. And I think you have to be, I think you need to have respect for what you're measuring when it comes to these like personality and someone's problem solving skills, like having the ethical part, be present every time. And that's why it's so important to also really explain and communicate why we're doing these tests, what they measure, like what's the purpose of these assessments.

And I think That's that's our responsibilities as recruiters. And then you... Yeah, some people are gonna be excluded because of these tests it could be because they are nervous it can be because of the visual optics there, there is a discussion about if it has any issues if you have ADHD, for example, like stress management and so on, and there are no firm evidence.

Right now because there's not that much studies being made on these parts unfortunately, like I would really say yay if you do it. But I think being like really harsh now the thing is yeah, some people might be excluded, but lesser people will be excluded using these assessments. Then if we don't use them at all, as I said, 80 percent lower chance if you have a non if you have a foreign sounding name, we know that you have a 70, 60 percent lesser chance if you're over 55, I think it's like a 50 percent lower chance if you're a female and overweight.

We are discriminating more people when we're not using these assessments. And so you just have to weigh in to choose, okay, so what tool makes us discriminate against? The

[00:45:44] Steve: Yeah, coz it's

[00:45:45] Malin: and so you just have to have take that into consideration that no method is perfect No method can give us a hundred percent accurate data anyway And that's why it's so important to also talk about you should not just use tests You should not just do interviews.

You need to have several steps because the interview isn't equal either. It's favoring extroverted people. It's a favoring problem solving skill as well. So there are no parts in the recruitment process that is a hundred percent equal to all types of candidates and all types of personalities, but some of them are better than others.

They're not perfect. But they're a lot better. And I think you should have respect that they're not perfect and you should always treat your candidates with respect. So if someone calls you and or emails you and tells you that they have challenges with these kind of assessments or are really nervous for an interview and so on, treat them with respect and see what you can do.

Is there some, is there something you can do to handle this candidate differently or separately from the others? What would like, for example, someone says, Oh, I'm blind. I can't take this assessment. What are you going to say? No. Like you have to treat each individual with respect and see, okay, when it comes to this information, I can actually take a step from my process of being structured.

But you have to make that decision as few times as possible, because otherwise you just lose your structure. And it is

[00:47:17] Steve: There's no, yeah, there's no silver bullet or magic wand as we say to this. It's there's no matter which way you choose, there's always going to be a consideration as part of that. And I hear your message. It's like we're at least to get A baseline or to start is trying to minimize that as much as possible and also as well It's not just about one stage does all this you can do that over multiple stages to support the different Needs and obviously the different groups.

No, I get that totally get that Okay, Marlene. Let's finish off with some any kind of thoughts or recommendations You want to share with say maybe just more from a scenario of those that are perhaps early on in their I guess development in this or are looking at, thinking about, Oh my God, AI is coming, technology is coming data science or whatever you think would be valid.

But yeah, I'd love to just get your thoughts on any kind of little gems of recommendations you would you would share or resources to help people in this really important topic.

[00:48:16] Malin: I think that the first step is to challenge the status quo. So look at your process and really divide each step and see, okay, so for each step, for each method, how can we increase the structure and how can we increase the data driven evidence based methods? Because you're not going to have a 100 percent process but, okay, so we can tweak our screening process.

We can tweak our personality assessments. We can tweak our interviews. See what stages of your process that you can actually increase your structure and your data gathering methods. I think that's step one. And to also understand that this doesn't happen overnight. It's super hard. It's a super strategical and organizational change.

It doesn't happen overnight, but just start. And don't postpone it. Just start today and start by looking at your process and find out where you can start tweaking. That's number one. And then I think each company, and also if we're talking to managers you need to understand what your pains are and what your costs are.

Because we always talk about these general costs a wrongful recruitment can cost up to 700, 000 Swedish kronor, which is Like what 80, 000 euros and that's a big cost, but it's so abstract. It's so general that you don't necessarily see how it affects you. So start understanding what your pains are and it could be that you have a high turnover.

It could be that you have a high number of sick days or it can be that you have low engagement and productivity. But I promise you, you will find the numbers. You will find where it makes you less effective and where it adds to your costs. And you just understand, I have to understand what your organization, where your organization is bleeding.

Okay. So what does this cost us? Because it's different for each organization. then when it comes to your interview process, but also in your recruitment process in general, focus on being transparent with candidates. Communication and transparency and showing respect. That's like the alpha and omega of a good candidate experience.

Give them as much information as you can, and try to communicate with them as often as you can. And it doesn't have to be a personal call. It just needs to be... Some parts can be automated and you just have to communicate early on. So this is what the process looks like and if you have five stages that are going to be automated, just tell them because then they know what to expect.

So give them the purpose, give them the tools and understand what is expected of them and what they can expect from you. And the candidate experience is going to improve majorly. So transparency and communication

[00:50:56] Steve: just to build on what you said there, because I think there's some really good, very concrete, very nice points. I love the, in terms of the getting started, I think that's important. Just get started. Is this, is there a way of, finding maybe one hiring manager? Who gets it, who's one of the 20 percent that I mentioned, one of the good eggs who you can test one, test this new, a new way of hiring or new way of selecting on to use that as a way of them building a momentum or to run a similar role on two different tracks, the traditional way, and maybe more objective way, and then look at how they compare between the two.

Have you seen anybody do that, or do you think that could be a way? Cause yeah. 

[00:51:41] Malin: Would say, my previous employer, Assecio, and I know that a lot of both their competitors, but also other stages like people working with references or other stages in the recruitment process, they use these to build cases with their clients. So I think there's so many numbers, there's so many cases out there where they have compared.

The vendors methods versus the traditional ones and that's where you get the numbers. Okay, so if you're using these solutions, you're going to increase this, you're going to decrease this and so on. So that's a really good way to get information on how You're functioning in your organization, so maybe you're great at being diverse when it comes to not discriminating on ethnicity and on gender or age.

Yay, good for you, but maybe you're not working with gathering the right personal Abilities, meaning that you still hire the people that tend to not follow rules, to tend to call in sick even though they're not sick and so on. So that's what I mean with what your pains are, because maybe you're not discriminating, but you're hiring the wrong people and you have a high rate of sick leave.

And there are so many interesting cases that you can work on internally. And so if you have a partner, even if it's like assessments, if it's an applicant tracking system reference checks, find your partner. They're probably gonna want to do a case with you. Do that. Get the help and support and try to have a Joint case to gather information for you and it's gonna help them because they can

[00:53:15] Steve: I think there's another thing the second point you raised about get the data the pain points I wrote here as well that as you talked about managers my, my add on to that or build on is empathize with your managers, spend the time actually listening to what their needs are and what their pains are.

They're. They are, they're just as human as anyone else, having an experience of the recruitment process, just as much as the hiring person, the candidate and the recruiter, and each one of those different kind of three quadrants or three key stakeholders are all having their own experience of that process.

So I think getting the data is really important. I also look at like data and ratios. So look at like maybe CV to interview, interview to second and tracking through, look at some of the quality ratios, because that might tell you something about. Are there any biases? What's tracking through from first to second?

And then the comms and transparency, 100%. I think just having something objective and having tools available enables you to give transparency. to feedback doesn't rely exclusively on a one to one interview. You're able to quantify it because actually the research has been there for years, like decades on candidate experience.

Feedback is the number one impact and drop off point to someone's experience, good or bad. And even if they have, even if they're rejected and get feedback, they're still going to have a biased view on their rating anyway, regardless, you can't get away from that. But instead of being a one star.

It might be a three instead. So yeah, I think it's

[00:54:47] Malin: mean if you get a no, you're always gonna have a bad candidate

[00:54:49] Steve: It's, it's never going to be a five.

[00:54:51] Malin: And most candidates will get

[00:54:53] Steve: Yeah. So it's a, that comes with a pinch of salt, but I think this goes back to your point you made very early in the meeting, in the conversation, which is protecting your employer brand and your reputation as a hiring manager.

That's the minimum expectation, enhance it if you can, but minimum protect it and those, a long way to doing that's amazing. So look, Marlin, thank you so much for bringing your energy and your folk. I love, this is, I tend to do, mix, I love mixing it up. I love that this topic is so precise and very specific today.

I think we've you've come at it a really interesting perspective and shared some really insightful nuggets of yeah, of guidance for people out there. And again, thank you for joining. I'm so grateful for your time. Thank

[00:55:41] Malin: Thank you for having

[00:55:42] Steve: I know, me too.

[00:55:42] Malin: about this for hours and hopefully we'll see something. It's so important. So thank you for having me. Let's spread the word

[00:55:48] Steve: do it.

Thanks Marlon, thank you. Bye.

[00:55:53] Malin: Thank you.

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Ep. 048 - Eleni Jacobs - Building teams from scratch