Ep. 023 - Re-defining HR

With so much talk about the future of Human Resources both as a function and profession. Who better to discuss this topic with than Lars Schmidt. Especially given the timing of his new book - "Re-defining HR", We explore the journey of HR, changing perceptions and what the future could hold for the profession.

Listen to full episode :

Want to connect with Lars

https://www.linkedin.com/in/larsschmidt/

Websites

https://amplifytalent.com

https://www.koganpage.com/product/redefining-hr-9781789667042

Experience Designers Ep 23

(I use a mix of automated transcript software and editing for readability )

Steve: [00:00:00] Welcome to the experience designers.

Lars: [00:00:02] Yeah. Thanks for having me on. It's good to be here.

Steve: [00:00:04] Yeah, welcome.  Been looking forward to this one. I know you've been super active in the in the HR space and as we know, there's a lot going on right now when we talk about those two words.

So super excited to have you on the show. So last, just I did a quick Google  of your name. I wanted to share this with you. I don't know if you actually Googled your name and seeing what comes up because it was quite an interesting discovery. I've

Lars: [00:00:27] I do, but of course, as you know, with Google, , my results will be different than your results.

Steve: [00:00:31] This is why this came up. Okay, good . Didn't didn't make that connection. Okay. So there was another chap called Lars Schmidt, who was a Swedish theatrical producer. And director and publisher. Okay. And he owned theaters in Paris and France and Sweden, and he was massively instrumental in bringing American theater to the European stage.

And I looked him up and did a bit more digging. He was right in the 19. Fifties forties. And he was a really big, so I just, for me, there was a bit of, a little bit of a connection in there, so that instrumental in bringing American theater to the European stage, I just thought, well, the latest Lashmet is really big on bringing change in the HR, you know, future HR to the biggest stage as well.

So you have a kindred spirit spirit in history, which like you're replicating.

Lars: [00:01:22] Hey, maybe we you know, us large Smiths have a common tie. You know, it's just singly enough. I you know, a while ago, I used to run recruiting for Ticketmaster in LA. And there was another Lars Schmidt in LA who was a recruiter who recruited at red bull. And the funny thing is like, we, we never met, but often we would have, Oh, you're Laurie Schmidt.

Like, no, I'm, I'm a different, large Smit. So yeah, we, we, we joked, we were. Twitter friends. We said one day, we're going to start a company called Laura's and Lars. But yeah, that was interestingly enough

Steve: [00:01:56] good stuff. Good stuff. Well, let me just for those that don't know, you know what, just an introduction into yourself.

Lars: [00:02:01] Yeah, so I'm Lars Schmidt. I am the founder of a company called amplify. We do HR executive search and consulting. Also do some media work. So I write for fast company. Host a podcast called redefining HR. I just published my second book also called redefining HR based in Northern Virginia, outside of DC.

I'm a dad, I'm a husband been here on the East coast for about 20 or been in the field of HR for about 20 years prior to starting my own firm. I ran global recruiting teams and talent teams at Ticketmaster and Magento and NPR.

Steve: [00:02:34] Awesome. Awesome. And I wanted to cause I did have, I did a bit of digging and when I say digging, I mean, I looked at your LinkedIn profile that I didn't go too far. But, but it was, you mentioned ticket master there. So there was, when I kind of, I, you know, I used to be a recruiter as well.

So when you look at people's. CVS or LinkedIn profiles. You've got, I always, I imagine them as a bit of a journey, you know , how we progress and how we develop as people. And when I looked at the kind of this chunk in your career, it was really interesting. It was like seven and a half years at Ticketmaster.

And then obviously latterly live nation. And then also a little bit later, three years at MPR. So I was kind of going well, there's a connection in here. Something about music, entertainment, content But also just a question there around that, that piece in your career, if you're on reflection, if you look back on it, what, what, what grounding did it give you for where you are today?

What's some of the, kind of the red threads or themes or passions or the drive that's been kind of born in that period in your career.

Lars: [00:03:31] Yeah. I mean, they were both fundamental, but in different ways. So I think it Ticketmaster you know, I had for the majority of about half of my time there, so I was there for seven years, I think at eight different jobs, you know, over that time. So it was it was a wild ride, but for half of my time there, I reported to our chief people, officer Beverly Carmichael, who we'd hired from Southwest airlines.

And she became she was my boss, but also a mentor and became a friend. But really, you know, very progressive on how she viewed the, the HR and kind of people and talent function and you know, the role of HR in supporting. Employee experience and you know, leading with compassion and just all, all these, all these things.

I think working for her it really kind of calibrated for me like what modern HR is and what HR can be at our best and like what our default should be in terms of you know, our priorities and how we try to, to serve the employees and the organization. You know, NPR was different in the sense that it was my first time working in a nonprofit.

You know, I had no budget. I had very, very little team. I had very little resources. But I had, you know, a boss there who was a really empowering, you know, for me. And so I was like, okay, if we're excited, they brought me in to lead their transformation from radio to and broadcast to digital. So, you know, now we're a nonprofit competing against for-profit.

In two verticals, right. Technology, which was everybody and media and journalism, which, you know, there's lots of for-profit organizations that we're competing against. And so that was around 2011. And we went all in on employer brand because I was like, you know, I'm never gonna have the budget to match these companies we're competing against.

So we've got to compete in a different way. And so it was very much a, you know, my boss was like, okay, if you can try whatever you want if you think it's going to work. And so we are able to be real pioneers and employer brand. There. And then that, you know, kind of got me that was like a next shift in my own career.

You know, understanding the power of employer brand and a new way to recruit and digital engagement and you know, which led to more curiosity on design and video and obviously, you know, audio and podcasts. So they both really set the foundation for what I'm doing now, but in very different ways.

Steve: [00:05:42] Yeah. I mean, I think what popped there was you know, having a boss from Southwest airlines, obviously the culture there is a, you know, inventive, it's creative. But then also with NPR, it's about well doing more with less. And I think that that requires a different mindset and a different level of creativity as well.

yeah, I can under, I can definitely understand that. One of the things I noticed as well is that you follow like myself, Brene Brown. What's what's what's what inspirations do you take from Brene and her work?

Lars: [00:06:12] I mean just the idea of being able to, you know, lead with empathy and compassion and empathy is a word we use a lot in HR right now. I think it's probably in some cases, misused and overused, but you know, the idea of being very accepting of yourself. To accept others. I think that certainly resonates.

I think that's a struggle that, you know, everybody juggles to one extent or another. But yeah, I just, I like her work. I like her voice. I like her, her realness. I just, I can I can appreciate you know, her her message and how she conveys it. So, yeah.

Steve: [00:06:49] I think it's one, she's one of those people that. Every word that she speaks. It just, it just lands, you know, she just makes so much sense, but I also love the fact that she's a massive, she's massively an introvert. So the, you know, I'm a, I'm an more of an extrovert. I'm a kind of eye on desk. So I love kind of being on stage or talking and sharing passion.

So, but I can imagine being like an introvert and they're having to get on stage for her every time must be you know, as she says, stepping into the arena. Right. So hugely respectful. But let's, let's kind of, let's talk a little bit about kind of 2020, because I think Lincoln, there is like empathy in 2020.

So just from like a HR point of view, what, what, what the hell happened in 2020 ? What some of the reflections and what, what happened.

Lars: [00:07:35] I mean, what, what didn't happen

Steve: [00:07:36] What didn't

Lars: [00:07:37] Right? I mean, 2020 was the seismic as it gets in terms of you know, how much, how much events change, frictions stress Transformation, you know, we can fit into one year. I mean, I think that we were you know, obviously we an event like that and, and, you know, and when I say an event like that, it was multiple events, right?

It was, it was the pandemic and everything related to that it was George Floyd's murder and the, and the increased conversation around you know, racism and social justice and inequity. You know, for those of us in the U S it was a incredibly. Polarizing toxic political cycle and an election period, and then attempted insurrection to start this year.

I mean it was a lot and, and HR was on the front lines of all of it. And so I think it was a, it was a uniquely. Difficult. I mean, it's difficult for everybody. So I don't mean to under you know, under share the, the challenge that all those events presented on everybody, but I think it was uniquely difficult for the, the HR function, because we were on the front lines of all of that.

And we were, you know, we were navigating all of those things both from the perspective of navigating our organizations and businesses through that. And in some cases, trying to keep them afloat. Right. That we're very threatened by just the way that lockdowns everything impacted the business. You know, keeping their, their teams, their, their direct teams there, you know, the, the entire people population and the employees of the organization and then themselves.

And so it was you know, it was a lot and it continues to be a lot, like, I think we we've moved through that. We're moving, we're moving through some of those events, but we're not done doing that yet. So I think you know, On you know, the optimist in me looks at those events and gets excited about what's ahead of us and the future that we can now kind of redefine you know, as a result, in some cases of those events.

But we have to also just kind of, you know, take a moment and, and honor and appreciate what we've, what we've been through and what we're continuing to go through.

Steve: [00:09:40] Yeah, I totally agree. And I think the there's, I've always felt like HR has had this kind of internal perception or PR challenge, you know, you know, when you kind of talk, say those two words in, in many organizational context, people who tend to go to HR or, you know, so there's a bit of an identity crisis, but, but I have to say last year, I, I heard so many great things about HR, how, how they.

And, and the, I don't want to say stepped up because they step up, but don't get me wrong. It's not because it's a lack of step up, but there was a, there was a, really, a really good flow and appreciation for how the HR supported the organization, particularly in these scenarios where, you know, there was huge change, rapid, rapid adjustments, mindsets that have been so.

Deep rooted really stuck in this kind of traditional way of work that now has to, you know, because it was a need to change it completely. So I think there's a, I think there's just been an amazing opportunity, I think for HR to really yeah. To experiment. I think actually I think the experimentation, I think is really important bit as well, too, to showcase that yeah, we can experiment with this stuff and things kind of always still work out.

We can make it work along the way.

Lars: [00:10:51] Yeah. Well, I think the reality too is like you got the most inventive HR team, but if you don't have an executive team. That buys into what they're trying to do. They're not going to be able to do it, right. They're not, they're not going to go to get that done. And so I think in some cases, what going through the pandemic did is it, is it unlocked the HR teams and the people teams to be able to drive innovation and probably do things that they've been pushing for.

For, you know, months or years, but maybe they met resistance at the executive level. You know, now that resistance was kind of cleared a little bit based on the circumstances and it gave them more runway to try and do things differently. And so, yeah, I think it's, you know, it's so you're right. I think that, you know, legacy HR, there is often that stigma associated with the function, but you know, there, there's a very big part of the field.

That does not self identify in that at all. Like they they're, they're, they're the impact they're bringing the business is transformative and substantial and it's seen that way. And so I think that you know, the events kind of cleared the way for more practitioners to start moving in that direction.

And again, I think as I mentioned, the kind of the optimism for the future, I think that's a trend that we'll continue to see is we, you know, as we take this moment to kind of. Again, redefine re-engineer how we work and how we, you know, create environments that are that allow all employees to thrive.

Steve: [00:12:14] Yeah, I agree. I think there's an interesting intersection right now around, especially this kind of hybrid working or however we want, what words we want to use to describe this future of work or Whatever but it's, you know, this transition that we've kind of gone into, but then how does it work moving back?

So I think for me, this, I think design or redesign is, is a really important, or my sheet at another word into intentional design is a really important thing here around just ensuring that people's voices are heard in particularly with part or some of the workforce, you know, we're now working from home.

A lot of that workforce are seeking opportunities to maybe have a, you know, part-time. You know, in, in, at home and sometime in in the office, how are you, what are you seeing from that point of view as well, around that particular topic in our HR getting involved in that piece, I noticed you did something on, on open source just like an open source doc to help people with this kind of particular topic, which is so right now.

Lars: [00:13:11] Yeah. I mean, I think that we, you know, we've reached a stage where a lot of us are talking about return to workplace and what that looks like not now, but like planning for when that is safe to do. So, you know, as vaccine levels continue to climb you know, there there's, there's optimism that you know, it will be safer to do so.

I mean, the a date that I'm hearing a lot of is September, you know, July for those who are, are ambitious. But I think that that also, you know, is a challenge, especially for parents because. Now your, you know, your kids who, depending on where you are in the world may have been home with you through much of the lockdown.

Now it's their summer and they're with you the whole time. So the idea that going back into an office, if you don't have the support networks to support that certainly is difficult. I think for those of us who had employees who were able to go and work from their home during this period, and we have to acknowledge that's not all companies and all employees, but for those that did I think all of them are, are hybrid by default.

Now to some extent. And you know, I think that the the opportunity and the challenge for HR now is that, you know, we're going to have to do a much better job of personalizing, how we approach supporting employees. Meaning there are some employees who are desperate to get back into an office. The moment it's safe, they're going to be there five days a week, if they're able to and that's, that's what's right for them.

You have other employees who will never step foot back in your office. Again. And you have a lot of employees who kind of would like to do something in between. And so, you know, creating an optimizing for hybrid is going to be the next big shift because especially for companies that didn't have remote and they were used to, you know, being in an office and had a co-location, you know, culture and orientation when they shifted to remote, most of them just poured it, all of their policies and rituals and communications that you used to do in an office to remote setting.

And many of them haven't really re-engineered that at all yet. I think if they're going to be committing to a hybrid structure, you know, now you have to do that. You have to kind of reorient how you're structured and as a best practice for hybrid, because hybrid is also the most difficult construct between kind of co located entirely distributed or hybrid hybrid is the hardest.

So you also have to, you know, ideally design your programs as if everybody is remote. So that you're not creating kind of two classes of employees and, and giving inherent advantages to people who can come into an office versus those who don't.

Steve: [00:15:28] Yeah, I saw, I didn't read it. I read the first bit. And then, you know, when you see a post and you read it and then quit, you move on to something else, our attention these days. But there was a piece, I think it was to see the CEO or COO CEO of Google. I think it was a few weeks ago. There was a piece around their concern around the erosion of their culture.

Was one of their main concerns particularly like how we redefine that future of work and or certainly how we work from a hybrid point of view.

Lars: [00:15:53] I mean, I think that's, that's a real concern that you have to work a lot harder to preserve that. And in an environment where you don't have people coming into an office and having those kinds of serendipitous coffee chats and, you know, water cooler moments and those kinds of things, you know, it was interesting.

I was talking to Patagonia's CSRO Dean Carter on my podcast a couple of weeks ago. And he had mentioned like, they're, you know, they were very co located. They're based in Santa Barbara. That's like, Like their, their, their juice and their energy and their mojo comes from co-location and they don't want, you know, they don't want to give that up.

Like they're going to they'll, they'll, they're, they're looking at kind of hybrid constructs, but for the most part, they want everybody to be based there. And, you know, he raised a really interesting point that I haven't thought about is that as more organizations shift to fully remote or hybrid You know, it's almost, it's diminishing culture and kind of creating a bit of a commoditization of work, meaning, you know, if I'm a software engineer and now I can work for Google, Facebook, Amazon, whoever you know, from wherever, you know, remotely, what, what ties me to that job?

Like I can easily much more easily move from one job to the next job, to the next job, because they're all kind of the same. They're all paid kind of the same. They have the same lid because I'm not going to an office, you know, there's no, you know, office culture magic that will you know, that makes that environment more sticky for me.

So I think that those are all it was a really interesting point that I hadn't considered that that I think as we kind of move through this, we definitely need to be thinking about and be intentional about how we design you know, to, to create environments that allow us to retain our talent.

Steve: [00:17:31] Yeah, I agree. And it's super fragmented because if you think of them as user groups, just, you know, your employees, there's different user groups and requirements and needs and desires and wants and all these things, you know, you've gotta be, I think this is where design thinking as an example from a.

Just from a human centric point of view, is that bottom up thinking, I think it's really important organizations do that. That really take the time to do the research. You've got your most captive audience, which is your employees. So do the research start to really empathize, understand the, you know, what's going on and design around that and then see how that fits in.

Also balance that with the needs of the business as well. So I think that's, it's interesting times there's got lots, lots to come, lots to come.

Lars: [00:18:09] Yeah. Did that about it?

Steve: [00:18:10] So now let's get into your, into the book, redefining HR. So I mean, when I saw, when I saw it, I did have, I had a chuckle to myself, you know, it's one of those moments, you see a book and you just shake it and go, Oh, you know, talk about perfect timing of a book release, you know?

So I don't know if you saw the pandemic coming when you're writing it. I'm not sure. But yeah. Tell it, tell it just, you know, I'd love to just know a little bit about how, how long does it, how long does a book like this take to construct? Like what, what was the process you had to go through? Just, I'm always curious.

Lars: [00:18:39] Yeah. I mean, so I had a, I'll give you the, kind of the, the, how the book came to be, because that will shed some light on that. So, you know, I've been I've been covering you know, what people loosely call the future of work. For years, you know, through my podcast through conference talks through my first book on employer branding through columns and bass company and Forbes.

So I've been examining it for years and years and years. And I think that you know, I had all these disparate pieces of content. That that covered different components of it. And while I was, you know, I think all the content, the individual content was valuable. It didn't tell a cohesive overarching story.

And and that's really what I want it to do in the book, because I wanted to write that cohesive narrative around what great HR looks like today. And, and what it, what it can be, and basically essentially lay kind of a framework for modern HR. You know, I had, in terms of writing the book, you know, I signed the book deal with Kogan page in January of 2020.

I had an idea of the chapters at that point and kind of what I wanted to say. I had, you know excerpts from podcasts and interviews. I had that I knew I'd be bringing into the book in terms of you know practitioner essay is and stories and quotes. So I had some of that content already you know, pulled aside and then then the COVID, you know, the pandemic hit.

And I, you know, the very beginning of the COVID you know, as it was coming, I began, you know, curating a massive open source resource to help companies kind of navigate things like shifting to remote work and you know, keeping an eye out for increased Yeah, racism against you know, their Asian employee base at that time.

That was a real concern. And obviously it still is. Now, if you look at what's happening here in the U S at least and looking at just all the different nuances and components are that I knew that we were going through something that we've never experienced before as a field, that I felt that in that scenario, in that situation, You know, I was, I could provide unique value in leveraging my global network and getting them to kind of release some of their pandemic response guidelines and programs so that everybody else was sitting there.

Like, what the hell do I do? And their CEOs and the executive team is looking at them like, What are we going to do? I wanted to help them have answers. And so, you know, the first so basically from, you know, the second half of February to the really through March, I kind of dropped everything just to work on that open source platform.

You know, and then in April, you know, started writing a little bit you know, my publisher was furloughed for a little bit out of London. And then they came back and you know, when I realized that my deadline was. Fast approaching. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to need an extension at this point.

So I think you know, I I'd had some of the content together, I think in terms of like, like sitting down and writing it was probably about four months, but the, the benefit of, I think the delay in, when I really started writing was I was able to write the book. You know, after George Floyd's murder while we're kind of, you know, months into the pandemic and sheltering from home and dealing with things like burnout and stress and mental health and all the things that were very real.

So I was, you know, I was able to write. A book about HR now, right. Stories and examples and, and quotes and referencing events that were unfolding in real time in 2020. And so the, the, the, you know, the fortunate aspect of that is, you know, another book comes out in January and it's really the first, you know, not only is it a framework from our modern HR, but it's the first book that was really, you know, written in the time of the pandemic and everything that happened in 2020.

So yeah.

Steve: [00:22:06] Amazing. Lucky. Lucky, lucky, man. That's good. That's good. So can I just say what's as part of that kind of research and interview phase, when you went through, when certainly last year when you were talking and probably talking to people right on the, kind of the coalface of what was going on for, from a Cobi perspective, w just, what did you start to see when you kind of started to bring all your research and those interviews together?

Was there anything, or what were the themes that started becoming me immediately? Like apparent to you as some of the themes or, or, or consistencies.

Lars: [00:22:38] Yeah. I mean, I think as I, after I went, as I went through all of the interviews and kind of distilled all of the notes and kind of extracted the key points it, it, it clarified a vision that I was already starting to see around com contrasts between modern HR. And legacy HR. And so, you know, I kind of opened with that.

I think in chapter one of the book, I lay out those contrasts, you know, things like moving from you know, commanding control structures to decentralize and power moving from, you know compliance orientation to how we look at policy and designing policy against the few towards policy for the many, right?

There is a, you know, probably 10 or 12 different key contrasts and shifts between how these modern operators work and think then how their legacy counterparts do. And so yeah, that, that, you know, in essence kind of became the foundation of the book. And then in the chapters throughout, I examined, you know many of those areas in more depth and that's where I brought in some of the different you know, quotes and case studies and spotlights.

Steve: [00:23:42] Amazing. Have you got any kind of specific stories or anything that kind of showcases best practice or, you know, HR or HR function that's been redefined?

Lars: [00:23:52] I mean, yeah, ton of them through, throughout the book. I mean, I think

Steve: [00:23:56] Is there any that stand out

Lars: [00:23:57] You know, I think cause obviously as I've been doing PR stuff for the book, I get asked that question a lot. I mean, there there's two, there's two companies and two HR leaders. But I find myself continually Learning from, and being impressed by their work.

And, and, you know, I think now, you know, these are two that I think if somebody is like, who should I emulate? I'll G I'll give you two one is Spotify and their CHR Catarina, Berg. I think she is phenomenal. And they're doing some really innovative work. And the second is HubSpot. I'm with Katie Burke as their chief people officer.

What I like about both of them, there's a lot of things I like about both of them, but what, what stands out to me is that it's not just, they're, they're embracing innovative practices and approaches but they are their embrace of open source, which to me. Is one of the biggest, you know, drivers of change and, and and moving us towards better places in the space.

Like they, they work out loud, they share what they do when they launch a program. Typically it's accompanied by, you know, and an HR perspective. Like, Hey, we're five weeks into this. Here's what we're learning. Here's why we made these decisions. Here's what we screwed up. You know, here's what if you're going to do this thing, look out for this element of it, because.

It's a, it's a landmine for you. So I think that that humility, that inventiveness, that creativeness and the willing to kind of put yourself out there you know, with it. So you're not just doing good for your company. You're doing good for the industry. You know, those are two, two leaders in two companies that you know, anything they do has my attention.

Steve: [00:25:21] Yeah, I thought, I thought, I thought the release a couple of weeks ago, is it with, from Spotify around their policy around flexible working they were kind of one of the first to, to really craft that. And I thought the communication of it was brilliant. know, a lot, a lot of the stuff you can just tell it's so carefully.

Considered they've done their work beforehand before releasing that. So I'm a big fan. Obviously being in Sweden you know, I get the opportunity to yeah, to here Trina's is named many, many times and I have seen speak as well. And w what I, what I really. Really love about her is she takes no BS in that she likes, she really calls it out and she really encouraging the HR people in the group or in the, in the room that I was a part of to really call it out, to step up and to be brave and to, you know, it was just brilliant.

And I think she's a real credit to the industry for

Lars: [00:26:13] Yeah, totally agree.

Steve: [00:26:15] just out of interest, I mean, this is giga, you mentioned command and control. And I think this is a really interesting one just to loop back on, because we've got this kind of, you know, systemic, and I see this quite a lot here in Sweden because Sweden did really well in the industrial era.

You know, they did extremely well you know, from a progressive points of economic, progressive points of view. But I think, you know, the success of HR and redefining HR, I think also. I think kind of hangs on the organizational piece as well for them to also shift their way in which they work.

Because if we suddenly kind of redefined our HR function as a function, turn it into this kind of agile, you know, you, same bolt beast inside an organization that likes to do, you know, marathons. It there's gonna be some challenges. What, what do you see with that?

Lars: [00:27:04] Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things that I'm very deliberate about in the book is that I don't I don't believe in best practices. I don't cite best practices. Obviously. I mentioned two companies now that that I admire their work. Don't try to replicate what they do, because you can't like the way that the, the revisiting that succeeds there is because they have all the unique circumstances around it that allow that to be successful, be inspired by it.

I do a version of that, but do a version of that that's localized to your own organization. And the reality is not every company is ready for a, you know, if you, if you use the analogy of like that, you know, you say in bolt, you know, Ferrari level HR that you can't just. Plug that into any company, right?

It has to be aligned with you know, the, the culture, the business, the stage of business the executive and leadership team, the resources that you need to drive it the, the health of the culture of the organization to embrace it. So there's so many different variables. To it w which is why I think you can't, you, can't just, it's not plug and play.

And so if you're not there now, when you want to be there, that's a journey. Like that's a process to get there and you have to start in areas where you think you can, you can pilot and scale, and probably have, you know, some, some quicker gains and traction you know, but you can't just port those practices to any other company and see the same results.

Steve: [00:28:28] Yeah. Agree. Agree. Okay. So Lars, imagine we're sitting here like say we've got like an organizational structure. So, you know, when you have the overarching business organizational structure and you see the hierarchy. And you see all the functional, you know, finance L and D HR. If we were to take a rubber and just kind of take off HR for a minute, what do you, what do you expect or what are you seeing as part of the book and the research that you, and some of the best practices that you've seen and where some organizations currently are, what are you, if we were to then start to write in the future, people function.

What would you, what would we be writing instead of those words, kind of HR as a overriding function, how do you see that evolving? What kind of things do you think would be,

Lars: [00:29:14] Yeah. I mean, I you know, there, there's lots of you see lots of things out there today. You see HR or you see people operations, you see talent culture, you see people in places is the employee experience is people experience. Right. I mean, and, and to me, I don't necessarily I don't think you can say it's absolutely this.

Or it's absolutely that. And that's, you know, and I kind of make that point in the beginning of redefining HR. I think a lot of people, when they hear that title, they think, Oh, it's like changing the name from HR to something else. I'm like, no, it's about the impact and the capabilities. I don't really call it care what you call yourself.

Except for human capital, I strongly dislike human capital. Please don't use human capital. But other than that I don't think it really matters. I think you have to figure out what's going to, you know, what's going to best reflect the work that you're doing. And so, yeah, I, I think You know, I like, I like people experience.

I like people, you know, I like people experience. I think those are probably the two that, that I, I personally lean towards, but that's just personal preference. I'm not saying that that is that is what, you know, what people should be locking into.

Steve: [00:30:15] Yeah, agree. Agree. I mean, I think one of it's not specifically HR related, but I know there's the, there's the amazing case. For ABN AMRO in the Netherlands where they, they were super lucky because they, they, they were actually doing, they were actually redefining their CX strategy at the time. And what they managed to do was also pitch in and do the kind of IEX strategy.

So they ended up. Kind of embedding the strategy into the HR services and operating model very, very early. So they were super lucky. And then they kind of added in an element around providing HR and some of the teams with agile and design thinking spring knowledge. And then they implemented really solid data, people, analytics and listening.

Strategy. So that, and that just, you know, those kinds of fundamentals, I think really have served them extremely well. On an hour running, you know, multiple kind of IEX products you know, to, to bring, you know, to add value into the business and they're listening constantly, they're taking those kinds of insights and then turn them into.

Kind of product teams and then going into kind of agile implementation. So this is, that kind of stuff is, you know, for me, like right on the, probably that top 10% of organizations are they're doing amazing work. What else have you seen on that? Have you seen any kind of really innovative structures or ways of work?

Okay.

Lars: [00:31:30] Yeah. I mean, I think that, that, you know, you touched on a lot of things that I think are kind of hallmarks to some of the innovative organizations out there that, you know employee centric, design, design thinking agile practices that aren't Heavily engineered. Like they have the ability to adapt and adjust with the business and the priorities shift.

I think that they work, you know, working in sprints. You know, too often, if you look at legacy HR, you know, the way, you know, the effort it took for us to get shit done was Herculean. Right. We had to make a business case. We had to validate the business case. We had to get all the stakeholders to sign off on the business case.

We had a pilot, we had to adjust, we had to scale, we had to get sign off on. So it would take us. Months and months, and months, or years to roll out a new program. And that's just not realistic. The times we're in right now. So I think, you know, operating in in three months, sprints. Right. So whether they do kind of formal OKR bars or just a looser approach, you know, it allows you to be more nimble and make sure that you're building to the needs of the business, because the needs of the business are dynamic and modern business.

HR operators are business operators that are focused on people. So they, they get that. So if you have a two year roadmap in HR you know, you might be six months into that and have a global pandemic hit. And blow everything up that you're doing. So, you know, work in smaller chunks, try to be a little bit more agile at least in, in mindset and approach.

And I think that's, that's a commonality that you find across most of these leading companies.

Steve: [00:32:59] Yeah. Agree. Agree. So I just want to also delve let's we, like, we talked a little bit about the function, the function aspect. I just wanna also go a little bit into the HR. Professionals those that are on the frontline and in the profession. You know, there's this whole, you know, there's the same on the VOCA reality.

And, and if I was a traditionalist HR individual, you know, you might be looking at this thinking Christ, you know, what, what, what on earth where where's my, where's my career going to go? Or how do I develop myself or this is coming and I'm not quite ready for it. W, what do you see from a professional grassroot level from an also, I think as well from a professional development point is a point of view as well, lost, you know, that what we're teaching HR pros right now, is it really fit for purpose for the future as well?

Is that really aligned? What's your take on that?

Lars: [00:33:51] Yeah. So two questions I'll tackle them separately. I think the first one you know, in my view, and I say this in the book, there's never been a better time to be an HR, you know, w whatever it is you want to do you know, for the most part, there's an opportunity to do it. So, you know, if you want to just be.

More of a traditional operator. You can do that. There's still plenty of organizations out there with traditional HR functions, where you can just be a specialist and just kind of grind on that work that some people want to do that. Great. You can do that. If you're a creative, there's plenty of creative space for creativity and roles that require it in the role today, if you're a data and quant.

Person, you know, there's most teams have some level of sophistication and other people, analytics function ranging from like one person to, you know, data scientists who are actually going through you know, some of the data. So whatever is you want to do. You know, there's lots of opportunities for that.

I think the second part of your question around how are, how are we supporting practitioners in that development? I don't know that we are, to be honest with you. I think a lot of the traditional and long standing organizations are still you know, pretty heavily rooted in legacy practices and approaches.

They're not really equipped or built to deal agilely with some of these new topics and things that are coming out. And so I think what you, what that, where that is offset is the increase in open source. And the fact that there's so many kind of peer communities that you can tap into to share ideas and templates and tools and resources.

So that part's exciting. And, and that's actually that's the space where I'm now moving more into in terms of my own focus in my own work. So I'm building some accelerator programs to really help practitioners, you know, build those skills that they need to be impactful in today's world.

Steve: [00:35:42] Brilliant. Brilliant. And just, I mean, I think the whole, the whole community, side's really interesting. Cause I think there's. My sense is, I mean, please welcome your, you know, your thoughts, but my sense is it's becoming less siloed as, as, as it used to be. You know, H I used to be quite siloed, not really share as much.

It's kind of like the talent acquisition industry. Versus the recruiter agency industry. You know, I've always found that in house recruitment community is way more sharing than the than the agency side. But I've definitely seen like this definitely shift. I mean, people are really opening up and sharing a lot more and yeah, it's, it's been really great seeing these communities and of course I'm, I'm, I'm I'm a member of the HR open source community on Facebook and it's.

It's brilliant. I mean, you ask any question and it's just like, everyone's just on it, straight off sharing and caring. So yeah, there's, there's nothing really on there that isn't, you know, is left unanswered, so, yeah. Hi. How are you seeing, what have you seen that growth and certainly your, you, you, you founded or co-founded that community?

Lars: [00:36:42] Yeah. I mean, it's obviously, you know, with that said you know, I I'm biased in this answer, but I think that you know, peer to peer communities are the future of the field. And it's not, you know, it started with HR open source. Then you saw hacking HR and disrupt HR you know, disrupt HR was, was first, but then hacking HR and kind of Enrique is building a great global network there.

You know, Google rework, they kind of open-source their platform. They launched that soon after we launched HR open source. And so you're seeing more more communities. That are kind of filling that void, that those legacy organizations aren't serving. And so, you know, to me, like, as you mentioned, you go to these places, you say here's a issue that I'm struggling with right now.

And within an hour you get five or six people who've done that exact thing. And they're sharing specific templates with you and recommendations and, you know, look out for this. And, you know, here's a, here's a great tech that we use to help us you know, implement this. And so. That's invaluable, right.

Especially if you're a practitioner in a small company in a, you know, Manchester or Perth or somewhere where you don't have access to a big resource of, you know, people in the ecosystem. And so, you know, maybe a lot of times you might be a an HR department of one. You know, but now you have the ability to augment your own skills and capability and experience with that of literally hundreds of thousands of practitioners.

And that to me is just transformative. I think that, you know, it continues on with the, the open source ethos, but it allows practitioners to really lean on each other. And, and I think that those conversations are much more oriented in like in the now real-time challenges that businesses are facing.

Steve: [00:38:26] Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. And yeah, I think just you know, just watching from afar and seeing it first here in Sweden and, and being a member, as I say, I think, I think you're doing brilliant work Lars and I, I have to say what I've got you on the, on the show. I mean, I just want to say A real credit to you, mate, because I think, you know , the open source mindset and it is a mindset is an amazing thing.

And you know, be proud of that. You've created some brilliant communities and it's created and fostered relationships and friendships, and, you know, all sorts of great sharing and learning. So you know, well done on that. I'm sure you've got some amazing things in the, in the pipeline as well.

Lars: [00:39:00] I appreciate that. Thank you.

Steve: [00:39:01] So last well, how can people connect with you?

Where, where can they find you? And and also I'll put a link to the book in the show notes, but also work, where can they find your book as well?

Lars: [00:39:10] Yeah. So the so the book and the podcast and some of those new you know, developmental communities and resources, I mentioned that I'm building will all be found on redefining hr.com. If you wanna learn more about my consulting and search business, it's amplified talent.com. And then I'm on Twitter at Lars and you know, of course, of course, LinkedIn and and all those places.

So I would say redefining hr.com and amplify talent.com are my two big ones.

Steve: [00:39:34] Amazing an at-large for your Twitter handle. I mean, come on. That's amazing. You brought you in early, you were in early. Last, thank you so much. Honestly, it's been a real pleasure and I really appreciate you taking the time to to join me on the show and yeah. Good luck in everything you're doing.

Lars: [00:39:49] Yeah. Well, thanks so much for having me on this is fun.

Steve: [00:39:52] Good, man. Take care.

Lars: [00:39:53] Take care.