Ep. 026– The business of belonging
With the current exploration and re-definition of work, a lot of deeply engrained concepts around hierarchy, collaboration and culture are up for question.
Imran Rehman offers an angle of community and leadership that can help us create a true sense of diversity and belonging.
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EP. 026 Transcription
Shani: Welcome Iran. I'm really happy to have you here. in preparation for us recording this episode, I had a look through your CV obviously, and looked at the things that you've done and, um, you've taken quite the journey through academia, uh, into the corporate space, into now owning your own business where you focus.
How you set up context for teams to perform well. Uh, but I would love to hear in your, in your words, like what, what brought you here? Um, and yeah,
Imran: Um, it's a really good question always. Isn't it? It's one of those that over the years you change every time because you realize a new aspect of your life. Um, yeah. Well, what got me here very often, I think is, um, the communities I grew up in. and some of the communities were Asian. Some of the communities were being, being where I went to school in London and then also in the north of England.
Um, and also back in Northern Pakistan, as well as, um, the communities that come from our culture, um, whether they were Gujarati, whether they were Punjabi, whether they were, um, Indian or Afghani or, you know, um, even some from the African subcontinent and from other parts of the. They all really formed you.
And, um, one part of it was that, um, I think what got me here today and to keep trying new things was the fact that our culture was very strict in telling us who we had to be. We had no freedom in choice of who we were going to. Because it was decided while you were in your mother's belly. And so, as I popped out, I had a lawyer's face and it was expected.
To, um, it was expected that I've become a lawyer. And I think that is one reason. Um, I think I am where I am today because I went and explored. So, um, like in my name, I think people always say this, this was one of the sort of nicknames in my family. I ran away. Um, so. So I think somehow that has a positive side and also a side where I also struggled with and I had to reflect upon it and also realize that running away doesn't always help
Shani: It doesn't well, where was, what were you running to?
Imran: Um, I think it was always, um, not being very often. It had to do with not being accepted somewhere, not feeling you belong and thinking. Um, I think I need to go somewhere else where I'm appreciated. So like in the UK, one of the things was. Uh, we grew up on a number of languages. We had languages around us.
We were multilingual, we had multiple aspects. We navigated multiple cultures and there was respect. There was this eye level of getting on with each other. And I think that is something then I just, I, I, I, you know, nobody saw that in you. No teacher saw it. No university saw it. No, nobody saw. No English person saw it.
Shani: The diversity.
Imran: yeah. Um, they saw, and if anything, you, if, if they did see it, it was pointed out to you as bad or not good enough, or, Hey, you are the ones with five kids, six kids, um, living off the state, um, sort of, you know, that's why you hair, I think that's. Took me away. Um, because I ended up going to places like Spain, um, where I found there was a level of humanity where there was an interest in me, the languages, my culture, our food, um, and back in the UK and in London, I never felt that I didn't feel, I didn't feel it until I went back later.
I always felt, um, I had to prove myself and very often you would turn up to places and they didn't expect you to be brown. And they also said that to you directly to your face. So I think that sort of stuff is what kept me moving and trying and experimenting. And it, you then don't, you know, you don't take no for an answer or you say, okay, look, you think cultural fit works.
Shani: Mm.
Imran: know it doesn't, I'm not interested in cultural fit. I never have been, cuz I've never fitted in and I've met a lot of people along the way who have never fitted in and we accept them as the Maverick. We accept them as something. Oh, she, or he's a bit strange or, oh, they're a bit different or no. Um, why not see them as a cultural ad?
Shani: Mmm. The cultural ad. Yes.
Imran: that is the word that. I think if we were to change or, you know, if we were to change the way we look at the world and we said, well, how would I structure the world? How would I, how would my workflows, how would my processes, how would I make decisions if it was all based on building a world in which there is cultural ad and not continuously looking for cultural fit.
Shani: Yeah. So with all that in mind, I'm just thinking you, you kind of broke free from a lot of ideas of what anything, or anybody needs to be into, to something different and to, into exploration and, yeah, I'm just, I'm a little bit curious, kind of what did you find along the way? So what, based on your exploration, what, what is a human experience?
What is a good human experience?
Imran: Well for me, um, it's, it's actually a really good question for me there. I, I go back to where, when I read the word human, and then I read the, read the word experience, and then I say, okay, um, you know, this is where maybe education does impact you and you think, okay, let me break that down. Let me get to the root of what human is.
And human for me is something living. And you could put lots of spins on that. Um, you know, but ultimately I think it, it has to do with the two effects that, um, a human has experiences the world either in a pleasant way or an unpleasant way. And, um, if it's not that. Um, no, no, no. It's, it's, it's that as well as something that can be, um, calm or agitated or calm and lively.
So I'm going back to the two effects of what you learn around, what is the basis on which the first MEbA or cell living cell, um, could sense the world around them. And it was based on the two effects. So, you know, is it unpleasant? Pleasant. Um, is it a calm, um, sort of thing I'm experiencing? Um, or is it something which is eventful or what would be the, the other side of it?
Yeah, eventful, you know, so those are the sort of things I look at when I look at the word human, and then I think the word experience for me, um, all boils down to one thing it's personal. Nobody can force an experience. No one. Um, if I put a gun to your head Shani, then it's called in legal terms, duress.
So you are not experiencing something that you want to experience and you are under jus and therefore act. Differently to what you want to act. So it is that space of autonomy flexibility. And then if you go into things like individual psychology, and if you get into the details, you start realizing that a at the core of the human experience is, um, self-determination, it's the whole idea of autonomy flexibility.
And so if you put those two things together, then, then you can start thinking, well, Um, that what creates and, um, you know, what creates a pleasant of experience that is eventful for your human is most ably. Um, what everybody's in search of as the human experience and whether you wanna call that happiness being content satisfied.
It makes no difference, but that's at, for me the core of the human experience. And I think this makes it even a bit more complicated. You determine that, but I think there are attracts outside. You get attracted to
Shani: Mm.
Imran: and those attracts you are in your, you are looking for and in search of forever.
Shani: So what are things that have brought you a happy experience?
Imran: Well, the thing is one thing I've for me has been connecting with people. I mean, I, I realize every time I hold a keynote or every time I'm in a group and doing a workshop, um, if there's any stress in my body, it's gone. And I'm in my element and, and I have fun, I joke around and, um, and on the stage it becomes almost like, how can I touch people with words?
How can I touch people with emotions? How can I touch people with whatever sort of rhetorical sort of skill I have. Um, I want to touch people, um, with them so they can feel where I'm coming from. And one key thing that's always happened. And I didn't realize was this whole idea of how do I keep it at eye level that it's I build?
Um, I don't build. Vertical relationships. So top down, I build horizontal relationships and horizontal relationships for me are always about encouraging and encouraging each other, um, in the conversation. And I find that is something I've always looked for in leaders and how I've led myself that I want to lead, um, through the words of encouragement and not through the words of praise.
Shani: Mmm.
Imran: And that's a hard one for me to understand,
Shani: Yeah.
Imran: what do you mean you don't wanna pray? Don't you praise people? I compliment people. I say wonderful things about people, but I don't praise them because the other side of praise is punishment.
Shani: Mmm.
Imran: So praise doesn't come without punishment. Um, and then if you look at your wording, how would you say some of done some great work for example, or somebody's done something which you didn't expect anything.
Wow, that's fantastic. Um, if you praise them and say that was a good job journey, you already
Shani: Mm.
Imran: indirectly, what you're saying to somebody is you are almost as good as me, but you're getting.
Shani: Yeah. And that's this vertical
Imran: Relationship that you are building. Exactly. And then if you wanna build a horizontal relationship, start with your children and see, Hey, how do I say something to, to my child in a way that is encouraging and you'll start realizing how difficult it is because you'll end up praising. because we all have been conditioned.
And whether you've been to mosque church, synagogue Goard or a temple or whatever, or if you've been to whatever school system you've been to. And also if you've been agnostic, atheist, we, you all find we are conditioned and we are conditioned to praise and it's a really hard conditioning to reflect upon and change in your behavior.
And I find that's where communities come in, communities. Have this very magical aspect of not allowing, if you are in a great community, you grow your human experience, grow, you grow as a human, and sometimes you don't even know that you are growing. And for me, that is the community structure. If you, if you take a company structure that can be hierarchical.
And I know there are many other types of structures. um, but if you compare a hierarchical one to, um, a community structure, people always say, what's the difference for you Iran? And I go, well, it's simple. Um, a hierarchical structure will always bring efficiency and stability and then, um, a community structure will always bring, um, um, it will be about human experience and human growth.
Shani: And bringing out what is good about each person, right. You can do if somebody has to be the best all the time,
Imran: you can't do that. No, you can't do that. And, um, and I think that is one of the hardest
Shani: Well,
Imran: sort of things for people to comprehend when you start saying, but then how do I build a C structure into a business? And I think that's gonna be the new competitive advantage. If you look at the future, if you look at marketing, we know the era of winning people's attention is over.
Um, the golden era of marketing is, has come to an end and we don't wanna be punched in the face. Um, in multiple ways, what we want is, um, marketing that looks at our intention and targets our intention. So I think we are moving from an intention economy to an intention economy. If that is happening, then it makes sense that the structures we had in the past, you know, the agency structures, all those, um, need to integrate a community structure, where they create their communities and have more targeted ways.
Of speaking to people, to customers. And so you'll find that means that even in, not doesn't mean as well, but it means agencies will have to contribute to the society in which they're targeting their people. And that is the basis of all community. Um, you don't come to community and take, if you are a person who comes in and takes, then you cannot be a community person need to come in and take and, and contribute.
and that is the core of being, um, a satisfied person. A content person is, is a person who contributes. If you know your contribution, then you, you will feel you belong. You will feel you have your place. Um, you will feel important. You will. Then be able to see and be inspired by others and become who you need to become.
And then you'll also connect in networks, um, and to the people you need to, to grow and learn and continue, um, building your acceptance and tolerance of new things around you.
Shani: Yeah, so you're, yeah, there's a lot in there, like talking about going from performance to contribution, which in itself is a huge step, right? From matrix to network.
Imran: Yep.
Shani: Where, you know, the weight is is more equally distributed somehow. Uh, I really like this thoughts of community and contribution and belonging.
Uh, tell me more about that
Imran: So belonging. Um, I think so, first of all, I think we underestimated and have done. So even though we know it is the most important thing, if you do not. Have a sense of belonging or do not fuel you belong, then nothing else can be done. Your brain is in spasm, your brain shuts down. Um, it is painful not to belong.
So take a simple example. Like some of the observations we've done with teams and team members and cant in one, in one situation, it was a canteen where we, um, where I was observing, um, a team member coming with his food. And suddenly was in a situation where he could see his old team members and his new team members.
And, um, and he was saying, okay, who do I go to? If I go to my old team, then the new team will think, oh look, he still hasn't really. Come over to our side. If he goes to his new team members, what will his old team members think? Oh, look, he's forgotten us already. And the reason I know this is because we spoke to him afterwards and he said, this is what went through my head.
And I didn't know what was the right thing to do. And we said, yes. And that is belonging. Because if you go to your new team, you don't, the others don't feel important anymore. What you mean? Don't you respect your past. You can see that belonging. I mean, and, and ultimately when you start realizing stuff like that, you start realizing, okay, so what is personality then?
Why do we focus so much on personality and personality? Ultimately is nothing more than, um, an element of us that is looking to belong. It's. Where does my personality belong? That's what you're doing all the time. Whether it's in partnership, whether it's in the family. If you look at a lot of the stuff that happens in family dynamics or in team dynamics, organizational dynamics, it's all around belonging.
And when you then break it down, you'll see very, very quickly that belonging, it all comes back to belonging and belonging is ultimately, um, you know, um, finding your place, um, in yourself. um, in your family, in your friends, in school, in university, at work, in your team with your customers in society, in your city, in your town, it's, that's what you do continuously.
It doesn't.
Shani: I know. I listen to, uh, talk with bene brown and I. I will probably slightly butcher this quote, but the essence of it was something along the line of the difference between belonging and fitting in where fitting in. You have to actually adapt yourself and twist yourself into a different shape to be able to be part of the group.
Whereas in belonging, you have a place because you are yourself because you are good at the things that you do. And that is what grants you a sense of belonging without having to be somebody.
Imran: Yeah. And let's, let's translate that into, um, modern organizations now. And that's what I do then I go, okay, so then why are we building, um, this place where we say to become a leader, you've gotta fit into this whole, have these competencies, have these behaviors. Um, and then we go away and say, well, how did that person get into that place?
God, why do we pick leaders that are like that? And you think. Well, what if we realized that it's the uniqueness of each and every individual and we have to make space for each and every uniqueness in the organization. And if we started doing that and start looking at coming back to your first two words, what is the human experience we want to scale?
What is the moments that we want to see more of and what moments do we want to eliminate and see less of, um, And what person has the talent and uniqueness to be able to create those moments. Then I think we would start seeing, um, a leadership approach in organization that moves away from as you so wonderfully described by Bennet brown, that you fit into a box and you only fit into the once you're in that box, then we can promote you.
Shani: Yeah.
Imran: That's what we do.
Shani: hard box to fit
Imran: Yeah. Do you understand? Yeah. And, and.
Shani: the leader box.
Imran: Yeah, exactly. And so what you start doing is you then start saying, well, it's more likely that this, these type of people fit into this box and you end up creating homogenous leaders, or, you know, that in the lower levels organization, organization is very diverse, very different.
Um, but the organization through this box is not able to see all the talent at no fault to anybody nobody's to blame here, but you're creating a very, very sort of small lens and you don't see all the talent, um, Where, if you look very, very carefully, you will realize that most women. Will have to check the environment in which they are.
So if they are interviewing them and even though they are already very successful in the organization, going up the organization, you'll find it's not, they're not some might not be interested. There might be many reasons why they don't wanna go up there, but say, if you, if there is somebody who wants to be promoted, then you will find that they will first say, well, is this role right for me?
So their first. Sort of questions you do, you will check the environment to see if it's safe for you and if you can belong. And that comes across as then, oh, is this person not confident enough? You know, I know that, you know, and then very often you'll find, and in my experience, maybe other people are experience other things that we choose confidence over competence because we.
S we, we confuse confidence directly with somebody being, Hey, look, when we ask them that question in interview, then they answer straight away. Um, she was too sort of, not sure in the way she replied, you're thinking. No. Um, doubt is a sign of somebody learning doubt is somebody testing out the waters doubt is the core of the way we progress.
Doubt is not and has never been. A sign of not being able to lead.
Shani: I love that. And recent in recent years, I've, I've gone from this more like dogmatic thing that you do when you're young, where you're like looking for all the answers and now moving to looking for the next question. What is the next thing? I don't know. right
Imran: Yeah. You
Shani: that I can explore. Yeah.
Imran: And you've, I, I don't, I mean, I mean, to summarize all those words, I've just said, um, for anybody listening and doesn't get it, what I, what I'm saying ultimately is we don't need know it, all leaders. We need it. We need to have learn it all leaders.
Shani: Yeah, I love
Imran: That's it that's a
Shani: And what I'm hearing you say also underneath all these ideas of the community and belonging, and can, I think it loops back also to the diversity you were mentioning, as you were talking about your background is. We have to learn to embrace more diversity and more complexity. Um, in order to move forward, there is no world where we all are going to be streamlined in, in agreement with one another.
Cause that's the place where we, we killed all our uniqueness and all of our capabilities and all of our personality.
Imran: Then it gets really interesting when you say that shiny, because then you've got people embracing it and then how do you model it? Because, so say so if, if people have gotta embrace it and everybody's responsible for it, somebody's got model it first.
Shani: Yeah. And you have to create the context for it. And that was actually going to be my next question. So if we talk about all these things and they, they're not small and simple, they're quite big and complex. How, how do you build it? What, how do you set that scene?
Imran: I mean, I. So like if I was working with an organization, then there would be something which would be a bit more sort of structured in the way you build a community. You know, there's, there's gotta be, um, governance in it. Um, you know, you've gotta look at, um, how people join the community, lead the community.
You've gotta create the community experience, but I wanna get a bit more granular with that. Cause I think what matters today is how you interact and the quality of interaction you have with people. Um, And the way your team interacts with another team. So, so there, I, I think there are, um, like. Three things that really matter.
And I don't find them easy, none of them. Okay. So I think I learn every day and I do it. I play with it and I have fun with it. And I think some, everybody who hears this now should go out and try it. Okay. So here we go. Here is what the first one is, um, is the ability to facilitate a conversation.
Shani: Yeah.
Imran: like,
Shani: Mm,
Imran: When you are sitting somewhere and say, okay, how do I open up a conversation?
Um, and it, and I do it in such a way that the person does not feel God, why are you talking to me?
Shani: mm.
Imran: And that's what happens. Um, and there are be moments where you will realize this person's wanna talk and it's a kid and you stop. Um, but very often people are very happy. To be spoken to, and if a con a conversation comes out of it, then they're very, you know, at the end, very often you will hear something like, oh, that was a nice surprise.
Thank you. People will thank you for having that conversation, however short. So that is maybe the first step. Can you do that? And if you're not that sort of person that can do that, then, um, then the other two might be more your thing. Um, the second thing for me is you have the ability to read the. So you can go into a space and then sense what's happening.
And that could also be like, um, the ability to go into an area where there are only, only dogs and realize the difference between a dog that's struggling, a dog, that's happy, a dog, that's crazy, a dog that's coming in and changing the dynamic. And that might be a, a dog fight because of the dynamic that's coming to the room into the space where the dogs are.
Shani: Yeah.
Imran: and I, I know that might be sound a bit funny. I spend a lot of time with dogs because I have one, I have a dog, but I'm playing that into now the real world, the real world into the world of humans and human experience, where you start sensing what people. Uh, what's going on in the room, you know, online today.
How do you know if somebody's not doing well? How do you reading? How do you read people online? How do you read a room when you're there and think, hang on. Are you okay? Are you well, um, how do you read happiness? How all this reading reading is really, really important and it's even more so today, because if you're able to facilitate the cost, um, conversation at the same time able to read, and the likelihood is that you'll be able to hold that conversation.
Now, the last one is. Being able to hold space when the conversation gets uncomfortable. If somebody, then you talk to somebody and they, in their tone of voice, throw something back at you and said, how dare you speak to me? And you think, well, okay, how do I keep the conversation going? How do I hold that space?
Um, the person who's irritated is person irritated because I have spoken to them. Are they irritated? Because they're like irritated with life. Are they irritated with their teammate? Are they irritated with whatever's happened in the last. and then you are able to hold that space and holding that space might mean that your back sweats, that you struggle as well, a little bit, but learn to do this.
And if you're able to then carry it with empathy, if you're able to carry it with a bit of assertiveness, because you gotta have some assertiveness there and ask what you always do. Chinese ask questions. So add a question to it. Um, and hold space and use silence. And so ask a question and go quiet. And then you'll suddenly find that these three things together can create dialogue.
And even if you might be disagreeing, you'll continue speaking. Now. It's something I don't think we do very well, any of us. And I think we should practice that more and more. And if I could turn a few leadership programs, I would turn all of them into just practicing those three things.
Shani: Yeah, I love what you're ending up in. Is this speak through your disagreement?
Imran: Yeah.
Shani: And not shutting down at that point, but actually using that as an engine to understand each other,
Imran: Andt
Shani: yeah.
Imran: yeah. See, and you can see what happens then. And then also on top of that, that comes this other thing of like, well, what if somebody's being horrible and mean to me? Well, Look at how they are being mean to you. If they are being mean in a way where we're hitting one of the ableism, the isms, and it's hurting you and it's an aggression, then.
Then it's that's that, that is a line. You have your boundary then set a boundary. Don't be afraid to set a boundary. Um, I'll give you a simple example here. Um, you know, after a certain point in time being asked, uh, you know, 10,000 times in German, where do you come from originally? And very often the person asking you hasn't even got to know you.
They want to know, um, ultimately, why are you U why are you European and have brown skin? And then when you don't answer, they pull it in a different direction by saying it's, you know, I'm just interested in different cultures and you're saying, yeah, but you are in, in the last year, you are the 10000th person who's asked me.
And if I ended, mm, annoying and I'd like you to pull back and you know, I don't, you know, you've been speaking to me for 30 seconds. You do not know. Um, and, um, and then I, you know, how do you, you know, that's one conversation I hold now at the beginning, I'd get ivory and angry and upset and push them away.
All my defensive behaviors would come out. Then over the years I started realizing, okay, you wanna know my past? You wanna know where I, you know, where I come from originally. Okay. Sit down. You've got 30 minutes and I take 30 minutes of their time
Shani: Yeah.
Imran: I give them a good, I go through my grandparents. I go through everything and I can talk about my.
and then people like saying, but I gotta go, no, just sit down. You asked for my, where I come from originally. You're gonna get it now. And you're gonna sit here and have the respect to see it through. And, um, all what I do is I then start saying, I don't understand the question and I hold the conversation and they go, people go all over the place, so, oh yeah.
Now I get the question. You're trying to ask me, why are you brown and European? Because you expect all Europeans to be white. That's why the word original or originally from comes from, um, and it might be, and I know it's coming from a good part of your heart, but are you open to sit here with me until I can explain to you why that hurts so many people,
Shani: Yeah.
Imran: and then they start using it.
Shani: yeah, I'm just, I'm very curious then in, in the inverted points of view, cuz now. Had that experience of getting that question a lot of times and, um, practiced how in different ways you can hold that space. Um, unavoidably, I think we, as people, wherever that intention comes from, it might still be something we're curious about.
Um, how do you ask that question in a way
Imran: Well, I think, yeah. Um, very often, um, peop one of the nicest ways is if you've just met somebody talk about yourself and where you come from.
Shani: Hmm.
Imran: And people
Shani: Give of yourself first. Yeah.
Imran: contribute to the conversation. Don't come in.
Shani: in community. Yeah.
Imran: Don't come in. Take. Yeah.
Shani: Yeah.
Imran: find that whenever you walk into some of the, most of the most beautiful communities around the world, and there are many, you'll find the elders or you'll find people who've been in the communities, most of their lives will always speak about themselves first, inviting you to speak.
Imran: They will. You know, they, if anything, they might start the question. So what brings you here?
Shani: Yeah.
Imran: Uh, but they will talk about themselves and it's interesting because then it makes you feel safe because you are new. You might be like, am I, am I welcomed here? And, um, and then the conversation starts another way of doing it.
Um, is. Um, by, you know, if you wanna ask directly very quickly, um, you know, I've people have said to me in, I know, I know you might not like this question, but look, I'm, I'm doing it because prepare me and go. And if you got, you know, if the reason from you is truly that you are, uh, a person who studies.
Populations from an ethnographic point of view and you find, you know, the shape of my face, resembles Afghans and you know, different parts of the world or whatever, then my skull shape and this and that, then Hey, gladly do so I've got no it's, you know, finding out your motive of why you are asking the question would be great.
Shani: Build up with the intention. And I like what you're saying around the openness. There's actually research around this too, where it is kind of stating if you wanna build trust, which is definitely necessary within the community. You have to start with yourself and you have to start by being open with yourself.
And as you kind of, then you spiral deeper into trust and into connection and into relationship with one another. When you open the play field to give of yourself, it invites the next one to do the same and so on and so forth. So,
Imran: See, can you see that? And then you start realizing, um, like, you know, that ultimately when people ask for recognition, what they're asking is, um, get to know me better
Shani: Yeah.
Imran: when people are. Yeah. Yeah. Do you understand when people are asking for like, you know, you. I mean, I, I, I was, you know, as is when I first began, began to facilitate and run workshops, I would always say at the beginning, look, and please be open for the next two days.
And at one point I realized it's almost like you would never tell somebody to be resilient by themselves. Would you? You don't go into rooms. Okay. Now be more resilient. Okay. I'm done go. Um, we're doing the same thing with being open. it'll be interesting then to come in and say, um, for example, how can I make the environment so we can accept each other's views?
Cause it's about learning to accept. And acceptance is at the core of being open and, and understanding for somebody's else's different perspective. So, and I realized as I went on, I stopped saying the term and in this workshop for the next two days, please be open. Cuz I, I don't say that anymore. I don't find that is the core of creating a psychological safe environment for, for a group.
Don't tell people to be.
Shani: Be open. Yeah.
Imran: yeah. You know, I mean, I, they don't don't, I don't say that anymore. I don't even have it on a card. I don't have it anywhere. If anything, I start off by saying, um, what helps you to accept others better?
Shani: Hmm. I love that. Leading with a question and finding
Imran: mean, it will.
Shani: relate to
Imran: Yeah, exactly. And understanding the ability of your own way of accepting other perspectives and that in itself, sharing. Might indirectly improve the openness in the group.
Shani: how can you stimulate that in a company? Because those are usually big complex structures. What are things that organizations can do to
Imran: Well, well, I'm a big fan of data. And I think one of the first thing you've got to do is start providing the right data to the right people. So far, the data remains with a select flu of, I mean, select or elite view to use two words that is up to you, how you choose it. Um, but that's one of the biggest issues.
Um, it, and also realizing that, um, the individual performance is not the most important,
Shani: Mm.
Imran: um, the most important unit of performance is the team. So if you then take those two things and start saying, well, look, what can I do to strengthen. That, what structures do we change? And, um, then because through the structures, you have power, belonging always works through structures of opportunity and access.
So any structure will provide an opportunity or provide access to something, look at them and start changing them and you'll create it. It's not it's, you know, it's people always say, is it hard? So who should model it will the leadership lead to model belonging. So, so other people can embrace it. If the goals, uh, you know, if people, if leaders have goals they wanna set for the organization, then don't cascade the goals, cascade meaning, and then build the structures in such a way that the teams are able to deliver.
And then teams themselves will work. It. So it's and coming back to what we said at the beginning, autonomy, um, flexibility, um, you know, these are all the things that keep coming up up again and again and again, and you do them through structure. So the hundreds of teams we looked at over the years, what, one thing we just found is that the teams that were able to change the structures, the quickest created the best sense of belonging, the best psychological safety and the best performance.
And they people, they say, oh, so do they do things differently? No, they Don. High performing teams don't do dreams differently. They have a mindset where they're able to change structures really, really quickly. So if you were to join my team, we as a team will have to say, okay, where do we have to now make space?
What structures do we have to change? How do our roles will shift? Because otherwise sh you will not be able to find your space. It's the group's responsibility to make that space. Not yours. And at the moment, it's the individual's responsibility to find out how they belong. And that's where the big era is.
And I mean, a big era, um,
Shani: making it, making it, the organizations in the team's business to find ways of enabling contribution
Imran: Yep. That's it? That's your, it's the, yeah. And that's when people can embrace and then, then you start and then things start moving and changing very, very quickly. And it doesn't mean you don't have those places in the organization. You'll find organizations that are very large and you'll find these places.
In units of about 150, or you go to one country and you find there it's an amazing culture and an amazing environment. And they, it works, you know, people then say, oh, it's like a family and it's not, it's just like a community. Um, you don't want your, I don't know. I've never been a big fan of my business being like a family.
Unless you run a hotel as a family business, then you are a family running a hotel business. But I think in the corporate world, I've always preferred, well, look, I'd rather feel I belong to a community than I belong to a family. And many of us have had dysfunctional family lives. So families don't. You know, the most amount of love for us very often, it's been our friends and our partnerships and our relationships once we were able to leave family dysfunctionality.
So it's so, you know, I mean, so a community for me is all accepting. Um, and if you're able to, yeah, that's it. And you are allowed to choose your meaning because the community might have some goals, but the community gives you the freedom to choose what that goals means to you and allows you to choose your own goal.
Based on that.
Shani: Mm,
Imran: And that's when goals work, otherwise goals don't work.
Shani: amazing. Oh, there's so much to pick apart here. Um, and we could go on forever, I
Imran: That's true.
Shani: um, I'm curious before you just, you mentioned, uh, you mentioned skills around facilitation reading the room, holding space, and I actually really loved your, your dog example. Cause I think, and I think it's similar with small children.
These are interactions that force us to use our intuition a little bit more and tap into our own humanness. Um, but I'm, I'm wondering, you know, Just to, to wrap up this conversation, what's your invitation to our listeners. Um, you know, how can they contribute to a sense of belonging, you know, or a sense of community, uh, in their own lives, in their own context, what are small things that you can start exploring and doing?
Uh, that goes towards that.
Imran: Well, I, one thing I've. Always done is like, I mean, I think the pandemic's been really hard. It was really hard for me. Um, and I'm slowly getting back into it is making sure you meet new people every week. Every like, you know, give yourself like one thing I've really liked it. I call it sometimes I've had four cups of coffee this month with new people.
Uh, and then next month I aim for five cups of coffee with new people. So like, you know, you ask friends is somebody I should meet, you know, you know, who's, you know, who I could learn from, and, and then you start realizing how your network builds and how things grow. Um, so that's definitely one way, you know, that's maybe I'd know, I think that helps you to build your network and, and also shows you how you are, how, and then suddenly other people in your own group of people will start saying, God, you know, so many people, um, And you always seem to know different types of people.
Um, and, and you always think like while it's happened, because sorry about that. Um, I thought I had turned it off. I, I thought I had turned it off. I thought I thought I turned it off and, um,
Shani: of your many connections, obviously trying to reach you.
Imran: And I'm trying to turn it off now and it won't turn off. I don't know what's wrong with it. I think sometimes I get my funny feeling.
My phone turns itself back on always like I put it onto
Shani: that's a beautiful reminder of the community that you've created.
Imran: Exactly. Somebody wants something from me again, or, um, or I can help them. Um, yeah, that's one thing. I think another thing is also so. um, there are some, like, I mean, I always find it's very, really important to find out. Like, you know, once you find out your tensions, once you found out things that you find difficult to lean into them, that's another thing I've found around.
So you really understand your own boundaries where you want to belong and where you don't want to belong, and you can learn how to set your boundaries. Um, that's something which I found like, even though you, when you see your heart race, when you feel your body body's burning and you lean into it and you sit there and you accept it, um, and you don't accept it in a sense of saying, I want you to hurt me, but you accept the sense of okay.
I'm gonna be curious about this. Um, I know it's a mindfulness technique, but I find in conversation sometimes that really helps. Cause if you've got teenage kids or you're having a difficult conversations with a brother or a sister or a family member, then it helps to move the conversation forward. And, and very often you can, you can work through maybe an old, you know, grievance or an old sort of, you said.
10 years ago sort of moment. And it helps you grow together. And I think there is something that's very, very interesting at the moment is then how, you know, like one thing I've, I've realized as a, as a coach and working with people like when one leader leaves or when one family member leaves, um, moves on that, then they pass it onto the next person or the person that comes in.
Who's new becomes like the person who's just who left years ago.
Shani: So we like inherit the roles of the holes that are left.
Imran: Yeah, exactly. You become, what's either been there or you pass on what people have given to you. And I think those are the spaces where it becomes very, very interesting in how you move on from there. And I think one of the ways to do it, um, is, um, by looking.
Or finding out and getting to the core, to the essence of where you belong and then working through those words for yourself. Um, and something very, very simple. I mean, sometimes it's just a very simple mantra for yourself and you can work through that a lot. Um, so I Don dunno if I'm not giving any clear answers, if anything, I'm.
Shani: but I mean, are there clear
Imran: No there isn't. I think there's just like, you know, like there are these people who are super resilient and they get on with life and I find every time I've met them, their ability is to connect. And for me, resilience is a group thing. Um, Connections matter, therefore, it's your ability to connect and interact and people with high levels of resilience and who do really, really, really well in, in times of crisis.
And they're able to stabilize generally very often are great at connecting with other people. Um, and even with the most difficult people, they do it really, really well without losing their boundaries.
Shani: Hmm. So maintaining your sense of
Imran: Yeah, exactly. That's it. That's what they do. They did phenomenally. And at the moment, what we have sold the world, um, has been that we've, we we've sold resilience as grit and grit, um, runs out of energy and you fall pieces and that's what organizations are still selling in their resilience courses. I maybe criticized now somebody.
I hope I haven't, but I think it's gotta be said currently there's a confusion out there, um, that it's, you know, bite your teeth and see it through
Shani: Mmm hustling.
Imran: hustling. Yeah. That's the term, isn't it. That's what you've been hearing. And, um, and those hustle cultures just don't work.
Shani: no,
Imran: They don't.
Shani: I, I, I agree with you. I think they're, they can be quite destructive or we have to redefine what hustling means.
Imran: Yeah. I mean,
Shani: that's also possible. Same as you were talking about in a family, in a group, like we get to leverage that opportunity to redefine things as well. When there are, uh, there is friction or there are empty holes in spaces, but yeah, I think we are up some really good things here that, you know, we can do even as individuals, cuz I think, especially when we talk about these things that are so big.
And sometimes so abstract is really nice to know the little, little step that I can take as a person to just move towards that. Uh, and you've been saying, you know, expand your network, meet new people, expose yourself to others, lean in on the friction a little. Sometimes don't be afraid of it. It's okay.
It's a normal thing.
Imran: it's almost like, um, very often we struggle. I, I know maybe somebody can correct me here as well. I find we struggle when in fact what's happening is you're shedding a skin and becoming somebody new.
Imran: It's like you're in the process of you're in the process of like, you know, like a, I've got a snake analogy there.
Haven't I, so like, you know, you're dropping a skin and something new is trying to come out of you and you are evolving and developing and, and, and that is, what's creating the tension, um, that, you know,
Shani: Yeah. And growth is a little bit uncomfortable. It's not necessarily a smooth flow. So,
Imran: the experience.
Shani: with the discomfort
Imran: coming back to what I said at the beginning about it can be, it, it, it, it can be a pleasant feeling, but sometimes it can feel uneventful
Shani: Yeah.
Imran: it seems so hard. um, so it's, it's, it's interesting. It's not always, um, you know, magical. It can, there's always this question I ask sometimes, um, when I'm talking to teams and saying, okay, so what do you find enjoyable?
Which has meaning, um, but bloody hard to do.
Imran: And that gets most people. Cause you're generally find. Yeah. Yeah. You see what I mean? So you find like, oh, it frustrates you sometimes, but you love doing it.
Imran: And it gets you, doesn't it? Cause you start thinking, well, what is it? What are those things? And very often it's then something very strategic, seeing something that comes to an end.
So there are little things that keep happening that humans wanna complete something people wanna see and end, they wanna see how they have impacted somebody else or something and how they are then appreciated and then seen by the group of people, seeing you do it or your team do it, or that there is this thing of progress.
Um, and, and, and that's what gets that, that, that's what, you know, um, that's what enjoyment and meaningful work is for people. I mean, I'm just like trying to, well, I've all the answers. I've, I'm trying to summarize all the answers. I've seen the hundreds and hundreds of answers I've seen, but, um, that's not scientific, but it, it
Shani: no, but I
Imran: a gist, gives you a gist of something.
Shani: it does, but then I think we can, we can, in my house, we call it taking a question, take away. Uh, sometimes when something comes up and we're like, ah, I need to think, uh, I need to think about this. We, we say we, we, we sleep on it. We take it, take away. And maybe that's the question. Take away question for, uh, our listeners is, you know,
Imran: Yep.
Shani: how did you frame it?
Imran: though? I framed it. Yeah. Yeah. What, what do you really enjoy or love doing? Um, so it is meaningful to you, but find very hard to do. You've struggled to do it sometimes, or you find it's exhausting, but you love doing it.
Shani: Hmm. So that's a good question. And you also had a, another question of what does belonging mean to me? So those are some very good reflections in addition to some little things that we can do to get closer to our sense of belonging and community.
Imran: Yep. Definitely.
Shani: Amazing. Um, I just really wanna thank you Iran for sharing your perspectives and, um, your journey and, uh, your experience with us
Imran: Thank you.
Shani: yeah.
Hope to continue the conversation in many different ways.
Imran: Thank you so much.
Shani: Thank you so much.
