Ep. 020– Take Action & Author of 'Talk the walk'
In this episode, you'll meet Dana Wasson. An abstract artist, a keynote speaker, standing on the coveted red dot carpet of TEDx and author of 'Talk the walk'. We delve into why employee engagement is at an all-time high and how leadership has been impacted during this COVID era.
Listen to full episode :
Want to connect with Dana
https://www.linkedin.com/in/danawright/
Websites
Publications
‘Talk the walk’ - Designing a Clear Path to a World Class Employee Experience
https://www.amazon.com/Talk-Walk-Designing-Employee-Experience-ebook/dp/B07NJLMHJQ/
Experience Designers Ep 20
(I use a mix of automated transcript software and editing for readability )
Steve: [00:00:00] Good. Well, good morning where you aren't good evening from where I am. So welcome to the experience designers. Warm. Welcome. Thank you.
Dana: [00:00:10] Nice to talk to you.
Steve: [00:00:12] Likewise. Likewise. So just for the audience, tell us a little bit about yourself and your background and, and also just give us a little snippet into some of the big passions in your life kind of career.
Dana: [00:00:23] You got it. Career-wise so narrow it down. That's funny. The reason I say that is when I do interest now because of zoom and the world that we're living in these days with COVID I have really expanded my intro to be more holistic. So the fact that I'm an abstract artist I'm a dog mom. My kids are grown now, so they don't need me quite as much.
Although they always need you. I am a third generation San Francisco. So I'm from California li the last two years relocated to Northern Colorado. I am an author, so I've written three books. The last one about what we're going to talk about today with employee experience I'm a speaker. I'm passionate about being with people and helping them have their best experience at work.
I've done a lot of strategic planning, a lot of employee engagement, a lot of employee experience love that work because it really makes a difference in people's lives. I've, I've heard the comment after doing a listening session from somebody that really struck me of somebody saying. This is the first time I can go out to work and not be thinking about these things and having the weigh on me after 30 years.
And it's that kind of comment that really keeps me going in this work and feeling like it's really making a difference for people. So would I do miss being with people in person, but I'm looking forward to having that start again someday.
Steve: [00:01:52] Yeah, absolutely. And well, what would you say what's that kind of driving kind of element that, you know, really got you into that passion for wanting to affect people's work life?
What was the trigger or what was the journey into that kind of focus?
Dana: [00:02:09] You know, I was a psychology major as an undergrad, and then I got a master's degree in organization development, which is really all about thinking about people and systems. And I'm much more focused on the people part than I am on the systems.
I'm just really interested in what makes people tick, what, you know, what charges them up, what brings their passion out. And I love seeing it happen. I love hearing when people are really excited about things, even when they're solving really hard problems, when they really get into it and feel like what they're doing is going to make a difference.
It's really exciting for me. I guess the other thing I would add is I'm a graphic facilitator. So I use graphics in my work. Large pieces of paper, lots of color and help draw out literally what people are saying and their ideas and their actions. And it really helps to build a cohesive team. It really helps people see their own ideas and it brings a passion to them.
For some reason, working on big pieces of paper and seeing people's words come out, they really feel heard. And I think that's really important in terms of making lasting
Steve: [00:03:17] change. Yeah, I agree. And I, that was something which I was, I was going to, I was really keen on asking you about, and actually you mentioning around the abstract art kind of, you know, the passion and the background for that.
I guess that kind of leans into that kind of artistic aspect of, of your background and passion. Tell us a little bit more about this graphic facilitation, because I think this is quite. A unique skillset. And I can only imagine trying to facilitate and also articulate something in a graphic way at the same time is very demanding.
So I'll be really keen just to, yeah, just to explore a little bit more into that. Yeah. It's funny.
Dana: [00:03:58] I have been doing it for so long. I don't even think about it anymore, but it's just really now the way my brain works. So I am always. Kind of in a zone when I'm working with a group and I'm processing their information as they're talking about it.
And I almost describe it as it comes in my ears and that comes kind of comes out in my arms. So the idea that I am like somehow synthesizing and processing what they're saying and capturing it in a way on a piece of paper so that they can see it. And somehow when they can see their own words coming live on a piece of paper, it's really hard to explain, but it really helps them too.
Like, for example, groups who are in conflict, when they see the ideas actually put on paper, they stop having this kind of dialogue between each other. And it becomes a thing out here that we're going to solve. So it kind of deescalates the energy that people have around conflict and helps them to actually get to the problem solving phase.
Steve: [00:04:56] Amazing. I mean, I mean, is it, would you put it in the kind of tool kit of kind of co-creation or is it more kind of exploratory? Is it, how, where would you kind of put it in the, in a design process?
Dana: [00:05:10] Interesting. I think it's probably all of those things. I think it's a really vital vital tool for design thinking, because it's really about how do we explore, because we're going to get all the ideas out there.
And be able to see all of them. And then in co-creation we can start to, you know, using sickies we can start to move things around and put things together that we wouldn't normally in just a conversation, be able to see or be able to do, be able to make kind of moving around Legos if you will.
Steve: [00:05:42] So, okay.
So give me an example, or if you, if you, if you're able to just share with us maybe an example where. Or your favorite one actually, or maybe your favorite group that you've worked with and, and facilitated and created something some sparks. What, what, what happened?
Dana: [00:05:58] Well, I think when I do, I have a signature process for working with groups on employee experience, which is to do a number of listening sessions and capture those into a template.
And then we pull together a smaller group of people to go through all of the data from those listening sessions. Sometimes there can be like, You know, 20, 50 listening sessions. So they're really looking at a lot of data and then pulling out what are the themes that they're seeing. So what are the things that they're seeing over and over and over again, and then start to think about what are the things that are going to move the needle for the experience for the employees.
And when they're able to like, look at big charts and pull that together and then start to come up with ideas, sometimes things that they never would have thought of on their own or in a different process come out because they can see their own ideas and information in front of them on these
Steve: [00:06:53] big sheets.
Mm. How do you just to have interest, I mean, I, you know, when w. When these kinds of co-creation sessions happen and there's, you've got a group of people in the room, how do you navigate and how would you approach where you've gone? You know, introvert extrovert, maybe where you've got people a little bit more reserved about maybe sharing their thinking, just because of the culture that already exists in the organization that you're trying to oversee at that to, or to change ultimately.
Yeah. And how do you know, how do you, how do you adapt to that? How do you kind of get people and draw people into that regardless of even their pay grade also has obviously has a huge impact. How'd you, how'd you navigate around that?
Dana: [00:07:33] Yeah. You know, I've found over the years, the best way to really kind of deescalate those differences is to put people not only in smaller breakout groups, we could keep mixing them up because somehow when we're talking about big problems, It doesn't really matter what your pay grade is because we're commonly talking about things that affect all of us in different ways.
And so when you bring people into smaller groups from a larger group, they tend to, you know, as natural, like an introvert is more drawn out when they have a smaller group of four or five that they can talk to as opposed to a bigger group of 20 or 25 people. So they feel less intimidated. Feel more willing to share and we keep mixing it up so that did the dynamics.
People get more comfortable with different people and realize that the process will keep them safe.
Steve: [00:08:20] Yes. Yes. That makes sense. It does. It does agree. Safety is that is the key word in that one. Okay, so let's delve into a little bit, cause you've, you've talked about you. Well, you've mentioned as part of your introduction, these these big words that we're, we're both very passionate around, which is around employee experience and employee engagement.
So I think, you know, there's an interesting, I still feel like we're still banging the drum a little bit about what the difference is between the two amazingly still seeing it even sporadically. But what, what are you seeing? What are you seeing in terms of some of the things about these two topics?
Are you seeing, are you seeing a similar thing over in the U S or from your perspective? Yes,
Dana: [00:09:00] absolutely. I mean, I made a big point in my book to make a distinguish between employee experience. Is really all of the things that go into creating that that not to reuse the word, but experience for an employee and an engagement is really the end result.
So for example, employee engagement surveys are really measuring the wrong thing. In my opinion, you know, you can't really measure engagement because you're, you're not looking at all of the components that go into that process. So for example, it's. From the very first interaction that somebody has with the company, their onboarding experience how they're recognized, what communication looks like, what their opportunities for development are.
All of those things feed into how engaged they feel in their work and how willing they are to give that extra effort. And in addition, the two drivers for it, for me are really about what the culture is of the organization and how leadership is. So if the leaders are supporting all of the things that make an employee's experience good, then the employee has a really great.
Time at that company. I don't mean great time as in like an entertainment experience, but they, you know, they really, they light up about their work. They light up about coming to work in the morning and finishing a job and giving that extra effort, which is really how they define employee engagement is really like, what's your, what's your passion for giving your discretionary effort into the work?
Steve: [00:10:34] Yeah. And I think, I think this year it's interesting with the the, the, the change in dynamic of the workplace jet down to COVID. But I have seen like the likes of like Qualtrics for an example. Who else is there out there? Culture? Glint they've had, they've had tremendous success this year. As organizations I think are starting to listen more at different moments in the employee journey.
So kind of shifting away from this kind of one, once a year engagement kind of score and, and ultimately still engagement, you know, annual engagement surveys. I still think have a place on an annual basis, but these kind of little micro moments where people are going a little bit more policy with it and starting to really.
Generate much more insight, which I think so a big component of experience versus also engagement as well. Is that somebody that you've seen or absolutely.
Dana: [00:11:26] I think this year has been a very, very interesting year because I think with a crisis. It, it propels people to have to take on things quickly that they were kind of dragging their feet on or really not thinking about.
So for example early on in the crisis, this idea, I was, I've been joking about the fact that, you know, people have been talking for as long as I've been working about work-life balance. And this year with that kind of slammed into it, you know, you want work life balance, you figure it out for yourself.
Everybody else will figure it out for themselves. Okay. It's a lot of things that people have been dragging their feet on implementing an agile environment, for example, well, suddenly everything had to do it and quickly. So the idea of like, well, we'll put a six month task force on it. Nope. We got to do it.
We got a month to do it. All of those types of things. People have really had to focus in very quickly on things like wellbeing, wellness, you know how to take care of employees. And the studies have shown so far that employee engagement is at an all time high right now. Now whether that's sustainable, I don't know.
I think that's going to depend on how much longer that people are going to have to work like this. And I think it's probably an unevenly distributed, right? Because essential workers are having a very different experience than say a tech worker who can easily do the work from home, as opposed to somebody who works in a grocery store, in a delivery capacity.
You know, I think those companies really have to show up to show how they care about their employees and how they care about their wellbeing. And you know, all of the things that surround that work experience. So I change things very quickly.
Steve: [00:13:05] I couldn't agree with you more. I think, I think the narrative is, so if you just look across LinkedIn for an example, there's so much about this kind of hybrid working, working from home mental health, health at home, but it's still, if you look at the overall total workforce, it's still a proportion of the overriding workforce still.
So many whose whose experience has also shifted because of COVID that there is a requirement for them to have a, a different experience or to, or to adjust that experience in some way. So I think we have to be careful, you get sucked into the whole working from home narrative and forget about this huge proportion, but it was still kind of doing the
Dana: [00:13:45] yeah.
Yeah. You think about the house on the have nots very much.
Steve: [00:13:49] I agree. So look, just, what would you say, like, just looking at kind of that in an organization, a more traditional one, that's kind of looked at things more from an engagement into more kind of experience practice. What would you, what would you say are some of the building blocks or the.
Steps that organizations should be looking at or considering when looking more from an experience focus, I mean, not necessarily deleting engagement and moving over completely away, but just to kind of broaden that towards more of an experience led approach.
Dana: [00:14:22] I think it's really for me, Steve, it's really about opening up to the ability to have conversations about things like this.
So there's so many organizations from what I started doing this work, you know, more than 10 years ago, the idea of having a honest conversation with employees and opening it up to, you know, what what's going well, and what are you struggling with? And a lot of managers are very hesitant to have those types of conversations, but I think.
In this world that we're living in right now, I think so many conversations that are normally difficult because we're in the busy-ness mode of just get the work done and get the work done. I think there's a lot more how we do things rather than what we do, kinds of conversations are happening. And so I think it's about.
Managers organizations really putting more of a focus on opening up that whole conversation to employees. And, you know, if you're feeling overwhelmed, just start with one slice of the pie, you know, let's talk about our hiring process. For example, this year has been a game changer in hiring, you know, you can't interview people live and in person, how do you do that on a zoom call for example, and really get a sense of how, how somebody is.
I worked with a client who had hired a couple of new people and they said, You know, how do we onboard people when they, we can't even get them in the office to meet people. And lots of concerns about networking. You know, lots of companies rely on those passing in the hall experiences for people to get to know people and build their network, you know, to figure out how to navigate the organization.
Well, those aren't happening, you know, you're either on a zoom call or you're working on your own and that's it. So how do you create those? Opportunities to grow for people. And I think that's the challenge for any organization right now. But I think looking at the overall picture is. Too overwhelming for most organizations.
So really like net it down to one thing that you could start chiseling away at to make improvements, to make a better experience for employees and involve employees in that
Steve: [00:16:31] conversation. Hundred percent interesting. I had a conversation with a friend about this a couple of weeks ago. I think there's a, well, there is there are probably examples now out there of people that have joined an organization and subsequently left, having never physically met anybody in the organization.
Yeah. I mean, who would have thought that. Yeah, I'm sure it's happening a lot on Aqua liar there. So what would you say 22? I mean, this year has been, and I'm sure, you know, there's just, this, there's a lot of talk about it, of course. And a lot of content, a lot of people kind of, you know, sharing their thoughts around this year, but I do, I want to hone in because something that you've mentioned.
Just to listen to you talk that leadership is okay. So leadership and management for me are. You know, I kind of sympathize slightly in a, in a way because Paul say pour them, but they are going through an awful lot of challenges because, you know, particularly managers who are used to maybe being, you know, with their team on a day-to-day basis can get a sense from the team.
You know, now having to kind of adapt to a remote, working with their, with their team and then also as well, I do think, you know, some of the research that showed was when you look at some of the touch points on an employee journey, a typical employee journey. The, the manager, the leaders have impact the experience the most on a day-to-day basis.
So they've kind of got this thing around this experiential thing around how they deliver an experience and craft an experience. But then also you've got this COVID situation that's kind of gone on top of as well. So I was just keen to get your view around. You know, the impacts on a leadership, this whole thing right now, you know, what have you seen?
What have you kind of explored with some of
Dana: [00:18:19] your work? Forget that leaders and managers are people too. So they've got their own challenges with family and kids and all of those things. So I don't want to overlook, you know, they have to do that job too and manage the people that they're working with. I think I think this year has been such an interesting year because for as long as I've been in the leadership space and that's a long, long time I got into leadership development very early in my career, we have talked about these skill sets that leaders need a soft skills, which has always really irritated me.
This is, this year has really proven out. The skills that leaders need in order to lead people, especially in crisis times, like we're in now are, are exactly those skills. And I wouldn't call them soft skills. I call them essential skills because they're things like empathy and they're compassionate listening, things like that are really, really important right now because they need to take themselves out of, you know, deal with your own stuff over here, and then take yourself out of that equation and really be there for the people that you're working with.
And. You know, managing and show up for them and say, what do you need? You know, I have to be really cognizant as a leader of understanding what my people need in order to be successful. And I have to kind of take that servant leadership role that we've talked about for so, so long, but not really embrace.
How do I really become the servant leader so that I can make them successful. Am I clear as leader, the roadblocks that might be getting in their way from being able to do their best work and, you know, and inspire them, you know, how do I inspire them and keep them, you know, light and all of those things, I did a webinar a couple of weeks ago.
With a number of young leaders and they said, you know, how can we kind of to this question? How do we keep inspiring the people who are working for us? And we talked about like, how do you do zoom type team building? You know, which can be anything from bringing an item from your house that is essential to your everyday living, you know, and showing up with that.
But as w as we know, you know, you're on zoom calls and suddenly you've exposed yourself to. You know, the good, the bad and the ugly, but I deal could be a child asking for something, you know, a mess of unmade, bed, whatever, but it's really, you know, that work-life balance, like I mentioned earlier is really kind of flipped on its head right now.
Everybody is raw and exposed. And I think to your question, leaders really just have to be just raw and exposed. Just like all of the people. I think that makes them real.
Steve: [00:20:55] Yeah, I think the vulnerability part is is a, is a big one for sure. Yeah. Sure. What would you say? I know we talked around some of the, yeah, we've mentioned about the leadership part.
But also I think there's just a wider kind of human aspect here around this kind of journey that we've been on this year. So we've kind of, I think we've gone through a period where. We've had to dig in grit, you know, the CR the human grit of adapt of adapting. You know, there's been a lot of things that have been forced on, on so many organizations and ultimately people.
And I think that's maybe why, as you just mentioned, the, the engagement increase in engagement, that potential that people have become more engaged as part of that, because they've had to get into the trenches and to adapt. And part of that, I get a sense that maybe. You know, that initial phase is run its course, and there might be.
Now we're in this phase two phase three period that the longer it goes on, there's going to me, we're going to start to see some creeks or some challenges. And one of those, I think we kind of talked about was around. This kind of lifestyle change or this kind of shift in people's approach to work and wellbeing.
My, you know, well mental health, what are you, what are you seeing in that space? So what's your, what's your opinion on
Dana: [00:22:13] that? Yeah, it's funny. The first thing I thought of when you were just talking was thinking about how many people have really. I had to redesign their space for example, at home.
So it comes down to like physical space, dedicating a space that is quiet, that has you know, for example, I'm looking at two monitors right now. I'm not even using my small computer monitor. I'm using this 32 inch monitor because I need to be able to see people and lots of them. So it's this, you know, Just in home repair alone, apparently it's skyrocketing because people are really looking at the space that they're going to be working in and thinking about how do they make it pleasure.
Pleasurable houseplants are at an all time high purchases. I don't know about where you are.
Steve: [00:22:59] Yeah. Here as well. Yeah.
Dana: [00:23:04] Nobody ever expected houseplants to be a big seller and things like that, but I think people are. Trying to figure out, like you said, as things go on and like the thrill of it is gone, you know, I can walk my dog whenever I want to. And the fridgerator is only 10 steps away. All of those things like I think people are just, you know, as you said, it's in the next phase of like, wow, this is going to go on a lot longer than I thought, what am I going to do to kind of make.
Make peace with that and create a work place, a work mentality that works for me that will work for a longer standpoint. So for example, I created early on this kind of worksheet. I'll just hold it up. It won't matter for podcasts, but it's a little worksheet that just breaks the day into hour blocks.
And then I have stickies. And I, you know, I kind of craft my day, so break the day into blocks of time. So no, it's not just kind of a free for all. And I don't get to five o'clock and say, Oh my gosh, I accomplished nothing. But I ha you know, like I have some structure to it. I think that's the hardest part is when you're in an office.
The structure is almost created for you in some ways. And do you have those, as I said, those kind of passer-by network oppor opportunities that you don't have when you're at home. And so you have to really kind of figure that out and make sure that you are still being productive, but in
Steve: [00:24:30] a healthy way.
Yeah, totally. I, I really think, I think I've mentioned this before on a couple of pods recently is. This is probably the greatest period where the company or work is now. In people's homes, like more than ever. And you know, we're bringing in the workplace into people's homes and let's just really stop and just reflect on that statement for a minute.
We're bringing the workplace into your home. And so that requires a whole different piece around discipline. It requires, I think organizations have a responsibility to ensure that the, the workspaces, as you know, as ergonomic as possible But it's conducive to a good work environment. I appreciate, obviously not everybody's home is, is, is allow that to happen.
But I think, you know, if organizations are really going to seriously think about a hybrid model, then they need to think about, okay, maybe we should scope people's homes and look at. How we can make that a much more comfortable or a much more ergonomically, pleasing environment so that, because ultimately that's there because it's a company's responsibility in my mind to do that in, in the office, right.
Dana: [00:25:47] In the us. If you're working from home and you have your own business, you can write off a portion on your taxes. So, you know, that's, that could be something as well. I think That's to the physical space. I think there's also the emotional component. So I think as time goes on, I think I'm hearing a lot more people talking about fatigue, about loneliness, about isolation.
And I think, you know, to your point about how the companies and the leaders take care of that, you know, from a culture standpoint, that's going to be a big one. We're talking about, you know, the, the doom and gloom scenario is, you know, winter's already dark in most places in the Northern hemisphere. But so you've got darkness, you've got holidays, you've got isolation because of COVID and resurgence of cases.
And so I think. There's, you know, we're in November already. If companies aren't thinking about this already, they need to be thinking about quickly about how do you keep people connected? You know, quarantine, these are kind of over, that was exciting. And April, it's not so exciting in November.
I'm quite concerned when I hear about people talking about loneliness and isolation, I'm really, really concerned about mental
Steve: [00:26:59] health issues. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I know hearing Europe, there's definitely been some increases in suicides. You know, it's definitely, it's some of the, yeah, some of the events I've been attending it's, it's one of the it's one of the hottest topics here at the moment.
Just how organizations are supporting people. As you say, the longer it goes on the deeper it's going to get. So I think it's, it's super important. Just to have interest, how do you think people's. Attitudes or views of work is going to change.
Dana: [00:27:30] Yeah. Well, I think, you know, for, so, so long companies said, no, it's not possible to work from home.
You know, your job isn't amenable to that. And. Suddenly, we've got people from every spectrum of life working from home, including places that there's concerns about security, like banking, for example, imagine bankers are working from home. Like how does that work from a security standpoint going about what does the company pay for?
I mean, I sure as heck hope that our banking institutions are paying for secure internet and all of those types of things, but I think I just think it's going to be an evolving topic. I mean, typically as human beings, we resist change, but we were thrown into this change with no preparation or warning, really.
And I think, you know, as I said, I think people adapted actually quite well early on, but I think just as time goes on, it becomes like what's the next normal that we're going to have. What's the next normal that we're going to have rather than. W there's not a final point. You know, new normal at the very end is going to look very different than how we went into this.
You know, there's just going to be a lot of attitude change. Both from companies and employees about what, what does work look like? What does it mean to be at work? Is it in an office, in a building or is it in a home, in a special room? How will people felt for houses and the spaces that they'll be looking for?
Could this happen again? You know, all of those questions.
Steve: [00:29:02] So what, what are you seeing in the U S I seem to, I seem to remember Reading somewhere. I think New York right now is having a bit of an Exodus. Lots of them are having big parishes. I know Paris definitely. As London's having an impact. Yeah.
Dana: [00:29:18] New York, San Francisco, all of the big, you know, high rent areas.
They have huge vacancies, not only in their office buildings, but in residential, because lots of people are saying, I don't need to pay these rents. Because I, I don't need to be here. I don't need to be in the city in order to work. I can work from my, you know, beautiful farmhouse in Connecticut or whatever it is that they choose to go live at.
So I think it's going to change, you know, office space for example, and how office spaces are set up. And now it's going to have huge ramifications on real estate prices and things like that.
Steve: [00:29:56] Totally agree. Don't don't you find it interesting that. I, I it's, it's a curious one. This, it just came to mind as you were talking, I was like, this is interesting that if you look at the Gallup scores of what the last two decades say, they've been, it's been the same, you know, engaged, not engaged.
I mean, the numbers, just the dial hasn't moved and it took a COVID or a pandemic. To shift the needle positively. And it's, I know in some instances really shift the needle upwards, maybe that is that not quite telling that may be just how we've worked, how work is viewed and how we work generally has not been, it's just been a bit, it's been, it's been plodding along for way too long.
Dana: [00:30:40] Right. But that's that whole thing about, you know, sometimes you just have to slap it into a different universe. No. We were saying, Oh, well, we could move it a percentage point. And this year has been like, no, we're knocking it into the next universe now.
Steve: [00:30:59] Yeah, I think it's just really, I don't know. We should be looking at that in a way too.
And that's quite telling may I think we just got into a bit of a rotten and work can be so much more rewarding and the opportunities that exist, both for people and also organizations, you know, let's look, you know, but more, in a much more balanced way. And I feel, I don't know, maybe we'd just been sleeping with work for too long and just having this, you know, Churning kind of hamster wheel.
And maybe now this is the opportunity to seize you know, these opportunities in organizations to really think of it from an experience point of view thing. Okay. How can we make this a new experience for us as well as the organization?
Dana: [00:31:39] Yeah. How can we be productive as individuals? Create our own. I have a ongoing conversation with a colleague about who's responsible for happiness.
Is it the individual or is it the organization as a former HR person that it's not the organization's responsibility to create happiness? And I think it's a little bit of both. Actually. I think there's some happiness that comes from. The organization, how it's set up and how people are treated. But obviously a lot of it comes from ourselves and how we seek out work and the types of work that we we go to and the people that we work with and all of that.
So I think the responsibility is a little more evenly divided rather than one way or the
Steve: [00:32:21] other. Yeah, great. The prob the problem being though is that us humans are complex buggers, so it's it's always going to be a challenge. So was going to be a challenge. So tell us, tell us a little bit about your yeah.
Talk the walk one of your books or your latest book, actually. And just kind of, yeah, just delve into kind of the impacts on the kind of culture and leadership kind of linking into that. So tell us a little bit about the book and what I, by the way, I just have to, I'm always super respectful people that write books, because again, it takes such discipline and focus to write.
Dana: [00:32:55] Yeah. Oh my God. How did I just do that?
Steve: [00:33:00] So just before, actually, before we delve into that, what was the spark that. Kind of took you on that journey towards this book. Tell us a little bit about that. I'm always curious to,
Dana: [00:33:10] I was fortunate enough to be part of a big, big global project with Mars incorporated, where we did some strategic planning at the very top level.
And we're trying to figure out, which is often the case in strategic planning is how do we. Take this at the top level and actually make it understandable and actionable for the next level down. And it keeps rolling down. So I put a process together that we used globally working regionally to talk with them and get their thoughts.
And reactions and questions and comments of all of that was a conversation rather than a kind of a mandate. And it was so successful because they really understood at the end, what the strategic plan was and the strategies and the vision, and then they were able to craft their own and it kind of rolled, you know, from regional to more localized.
So at the end of. I don't remember at what was the timeframe, but it was a pretty aggressive timeframe. It was like six to nine months getting this all around the world all the way down to a very, very localized level of everybody having a strategic plan that was linked up to the senior leaders.
Strategic plan for the business. And I really became fascinated in this because it was how to create strategy engagement. How do you create engagement at every level to the strategy? So I became very, very interested in that, especially after working for years where it just felt like. Leaders got it. But then they pass it onto the people who had to implement it and they had no clue what they were doing.
And so their engagement to the process and making it happen was very low. I did a second project actually with Mars. A lot of my early work was with Mars. I've worked with them for several years where they were Mars bought Wrigley and Mars and Wrigley are basically the same size company. Very, very similar in many respects because they're both family.
They were family founded. A lot of family involvement in those two businesses, almost the same size created almost at the same time. But when you merge these two together, this had to be successful because they were both such big companies and such successful brands on their own, but merging them together didn't necessarily, as we all know from acquisitions or not ensure success, right.
40, I think it's 40% of. Acquisitions fail. They don't really take into account the culture. And so we work very, very hard on creating a process again, to take it around the world. Not necessarily taking it from our standpoint down to the very, you know bottom of the organization, but helping them to have open conversations about culture.
So one of my favorites activities we did was something called what's mad about Mars and wacky about Wrigley and what we're creative about. That conversation, not only the title. But we had mixed groups of leaders from both Mars and Wrigley, and they were able to talk, and this wasn't at the initial part of the acquisition, but it was a few months in where they'd started to discover these mad and wacky things.
And they were able to have these conversations about what they discovered about the other organization. But it was in a healthy way. And you think about so many times where acquisitions fail is that people have those conversations, you know, in a, not a water cooler anymore, but that kind of conversation where it's not open and it's not in a healthy way, it's more in a critical way.
And by having these open conversations, they were able to really kind of laugh about and understand why the other organization was doing something the way that they were doing. And through that kind of conversation, it helps them to really. Kind of merge in a more healthy way and laugh about things that were kind of silly.
You know, we all do things that are silly individually, organizationally, et cetera. So to have those conversations openly was helpful. And then finally, you know, after all of those types of jobs, I was doing a lot of stuff around employee engagement. And so this is around, you know, 2008 or so 2007. And Gallup was really taking off at the time with a lot of organizations, including Mars, but nobody knew what to do with the results.
Gallup had a great system for doing measuring, but they had really not a system for, so now what and companies were left with wondering, well, what do we do with these results? I'm a lot of companies would just go, okay, well, hopefully next year we'll be better. You know, that's. That seems like a very expensive, very expensive conversation not to have.
And so we developed a process of how do we take that information and go to the places that seemed like they were really hurting and have the next conversation, which was actually active with people to listen about what did their results mean and where, what were the specifics that were really causing them to be disengaged and then working to.
Think about what are the actions that we can actually take to make it better. And I think that's where I developed kind of my cynicism about surveys is not the survey itself, but the fact that it just kind of leaves you with. A flat piece of paper and not really understanding what the results mean and what to do.
And it, I watched so many leaders and managers feel so helpless because if they had known what to do, they would have done it. Right. And so how do you help them to go, okay. Right. I got the results. Now. I want to have a conversation with my team because a lot of these Gallup results come down to the team's results.
Right. And so how do I have this conversation? The next conversation with my team to say, okay, These were our results guys. What w what does it mean? What was happening when we took these surveys? Another big problem with surveys is they're often be taken in February and you get the results in October.
Well, look at this year, if you took a survey in February of 2012, we're getting results now. I mean, that's a different world you were living in, right?
Steve: [00:39:10] Yeah. Massively massive. So, so the book, so the book was created from a so kind of talk the walk was that kind of taken obviously? Yeah. How was it kind of how'd you get to that title?
By the way? It looks with
Dana: [00:39:25] my publisher talking, go, go beyond, just walk the talk, but how can you actually, you can go beyond. You're not just doing it, but you can actually talk about it and have the conversations with people. I really designed in my, the employee experience process and the, and I created something I call the wheel.
So what are those different experience touchpoints that we are talking about on that employee journey that are the opportunities to make changes for the better. Yeah,
Steve: [00:39:58] I think, I think I totally agree with you in relation to actually doing something with, with data. I think, I think HR functions who tend to administer these types of you know, initiatives or surveys you know, research quants and qual research is an art form in itself.
I mean, you know, I know I've got a team of researchers who I use regularly and I wouldn't even attempt to do some of the research aspects myself. Just because they're. Either they're good at what they do. So you know, a lot of people who administer or create these aren't necessarily have a background in, in research.
But I think for me, You know, if you're gonna, if you're going to do any former survey, particularly, even if you did just an annual engagement survey, you should be waiting there with a team, a group of people with white gloves on waiting to see what comes out and say, right. What's the low hanging fruit.
It might just be hygiene factor stuff, right? You get hold of it, turn it around quick, build the trust, build that trust that you're listening and you're going to, and then the more project strategic stuff can follow afterwards. Cause obviously time, it tends to take a little bit more time. So I think that's something which I've always seen as well is just that just turning it around really quickly.
You know, the systems now really do provide. The insight in that narrow it down very quickly for you,
Dana: [00:41:19] which is why pulse surveys are probably gaining popularity is because you get information so quick in real time and be able to do something. Yeah.
Steve: [00:41:27] Yeah. Great. I agree. So Dana, as we as we draw to a, a bit of a close cause I can't believe how quick still after school and I love it.
I love it. So. What would you just like let's, let's impart some some pearls of wisdom out there. So what would you, what would you kind of recommend to people or in organizations who are looking to start that kind of, you know, a movement in their organization or are looking to ensure that, because I think the theme here for me is around.
Cascading and bringing people together and communication and bringing, you know, it's it's yeah. So what would you recommend people do? Is there any kind of little nuggets or, or any tools that you'd like to share with anybody?
Dana: [00:42:09] I think particularly in these times, I think figuring out where you could start the conversation with people.
So like look at the employee journey and pick off someplace that you think people are really needing to have a conversation right now. Maybe it's about communication. Maybe it's about recognition. It's probably not about onboarding or things like that. That's not, not top of people's minds in your organization as a leader, but where is a place that you could open the conversation to start making changes for the positive and get people's input and suggestions?
Yeah, I think that's, I really think just people right now are that isolation and the stress of what's going on and the fear of the unknown and what's coming next. I think just opening up the conversation so that people feel like they can talk about what's really going on for them, I think is really important.
I think, I think that that empathetic leader. And the compassionate listening are so critical right now. That to be a good leader is almost just to be willing to like open the conversation and then listen to what comes in without any judgment. Just listening,
Steve: [00:43:21] empathetically. Yeah, I agree. And you can practice empathy.
It's not something you're just born with. It's something that you can evolve and really practice and develop. And I would say there's probably this, my favorite quote of all time, not all the time, but so one of my favorite quotes relating to employee experience, which I think feeds directly into that was by a chap called Mark Levy, who is the of of Airbnb.
And his one was around employee experiences about doing things with.