Ep. 046 - Andre Fangueiro - Making space and managing for design

Design is a buzzword for everything from products to customer- and employee experiences. But beyond that, it is a mindset and skill-set that requires dedicated practice both by individuals and organizations. 

With Andre Fangueiro we explore different facets of design, from individual behaviors to leadership, career development and organizational structures. What does it actually take to do design (successfully)?

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Want to connect with Andre:

linkedin.com/in/andrefangueiro

Studio Lata:

https://www.studiolata.com/ 

About Andre:
André Fangueiro was born in Matosinhos, Porto in Portugal, where he also studied at ESAD Escola Superior de Artes e Design. He holds a master’s degree in Industrial Design and Structures from the Academy of Fine Arts in Warsaw, Poland. André’s career spans a variety of industries and brands including Giant Bicycles, Canon, and Nestle and he is currently Head of Design at Tietoevry.

In 2014 André founded his own design and business innovation firm Studio Lata. In 2017 André was part of the team winning the IF Award Gold for the design language in Canon and an IF Award for Dolfi, a portable washing machine through Studio Lata. In 2018, André had the privilege to expose his work on a Kuschall wheelchair at the TATE in London.

Andre believes that product, service, and innovation should be the cornerstones of any business and is very active in formulating Business Design in both start-ups and education.

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EP. 046 Transcription

[00:00:00] Shani: Hi, my name is Shani and welcome to the experience designers podcast, where we explore the human experience, what it is and how we might create better ones for ourselves and for others. Today you're invited to a creativity ping pong game. Not your normal kind of ping pong, though. There is no table or paddles or ball.

[00:00:24] Instead we exchange ideas, we talk about design and creativity, bouncing between how we do it and who we need to be in order to lead and contribute to it. My fellow player in this episode is Andre Fanguero.

[00:00:43] Head of design at Tieto Evry, a design aficionado with a passion for how we meet user needs with the most amount of value. Together we explore hurdles for creativity, the relationship between craft and mindset, and why ping pong is a great analogy for the start of a creative process. Join us. Hi, André.

[00:01:07] Welcome. It's great to have you at the Experienced Designers. 

[00:01:12] Andre: Super. Thank you. Thank you for having me here, Shani. I'm looking forward to join this 

[00:01:16] Shani: podcast. Yeah. I want to start with, with you as I, as I usually do. And, having had a look at, your background and having Spoken to you before.

[00:01:25] I know that design and innovation have literally taken you around the world. So, just let's first sink into that. I'm really curious, who are you and what is it about design that drew you in? 

[00:01:41] Andre: Yeah.

[00:01:41] So, um, so as you know, um, my name is of course, Andre and I have been a designer for many, many years. I, uh, was originally born in Portugal and, uh, since the kind of, I remember there was, I have been always interested in both. Developing new products for customers and understanding really what are the user needs for those products.

[00:02:10] So that journey started really early on. And in Portugal, we started by doing different types of design. I started as a graphic designer and then moved into product and then industrial. And even now, later on, I'm very operative in both service designs and innovation and how to bring this into the market.

[00:02:31] And, um. Of course, as long as I was, uh, developing myself and my skill, that also took me to different countries. So I have been living also in different cultures and understanding also different aspects of, uh, in our sense of, uh, both in Europe, but as well in, in the world. So I have worked for both Chinese, Japanese companies, American companies, a little bit all over the place, but always the same goal.

[00:02:58] Um, really understanding, um, you know, how can I deliver value for, for both, uh, you know, customers and users and, and how do I bring innovation into life? And how do we monetize on that to create value for all of us? That's really kind of my starting point always. 

[00:03:16] Shani: Amazing. Thank you for sharing that.

[00:03:18] I like that starting point. But I guess I'm curious to dive in with you then, because you've, you've both explored this. Value creation for people from a lot of different angles, really products, services, experiences in different ways. So what have, have you found any like universal truths in terms of, if we look besides like a specific product?

[00:03:42] What is, what's important to people? 

[00:03:46] Andre: I don't know if they found, universal truths. I mean, some of them, of course, is, is about, solving, I think, daily, I would say almost daily and humankind needs that we have. And, and, and often when we are doing that, it's then done by a point of view.

[00:04:05] And that point of view can be sometimes cultural point of view. So trying to understand exactly how did they see it in that specific culture? Um, and, and there are some different nuances then if we go from, from, from different, uh, from different cultures to different culture, but also what I realized as well, and I think it's always important to notice it's also not only.

[00:04:27] Kind of the, user or front end of the design that also has sometimes has a lot of impact on the solution. Sometimes also what is the internal culture inside of the company. And those two points of views actually are the ones that I spend a lot of my time is not only understanding and translating the needs, but then it's really how do you drive them through an organization and to, you know, and deliver still the value that.

[00:04:52] We want to deliver to the users that those are really the most universal ones that I can that I can notice and then it requires a little bit of adaptation on the technique on how to deliver it. 

[00:05:05] Shani: I really like what you're saying. I think that I've had similar reflections as well. When I look at. The shift that we're in now, which is less linear and less telling people what they need and telling people what they want, then not only do we need to be asking ourselves kind of what is it that we're providing in terms of value, but also who do we need to be and how do we need to be acting or how do we need to be interacting, uh, in order to be able to deliver that?

[00:05:35] Um, yeah, let's dive into that a little kind of what have you found then to be The competencies that we need to dive into more design, more innovation and to center other people, right? Because that's also a big part of it. It's not to create from a space of who you are. 

[00:05:57] Andre: Yeah, of course. I mean, we always attempt to start with this, with empathy in mind and and, you know, and really trying to understand as close as we can, I think both and regardless if it's then the customer, or if it's even your organization, trying to understand really why things are the way that they are and trying to, prevent some kind of, um, blind spots that we might have during the, during those stages.

[00:06:22] I think this is really critical. Um, and, and sometimes I, even myself, I caught myself. Looking at the situation and thinking that I'm understanding the situation because it's based on my personal experience. And then sometimes the result changes and you're like, okay, this, this, the reason that it changes that I misunderstood it initially.

[00:06:43] Um, so that, that always has kind of a really, um, you know, it's really important to be self aware, you know, that there is a learning curve always, even from your side, um, when you're trying to drive innovation. Um, but I think in addition to that, what often I, I talk a lot and I preach a lot, it's about, there are some aspects that's about our craft.

[00:07:06] So it's like how good of a designer you are and how up to date is your craft. But there is also other aspects that, that those touch a little bit. What are your abilities? So are you a good listener and do you listen it correctly? Or, you know, do you have empathy? Do you have ability to understand the surroundings?

[00:07:23] Um, of yourself, and how do you navigate that? Um, those are really very important characteristics that we have. If you want to bring, you know, innovation into place, um, and not always they are taught. So, so it's somehow that you have to both gain by experience. And when sometimes you also have to be just, smart enough or clever enough to just pick on those and then try to develop, not always you have. Great literature or education on those points. 

[00:07:51] Shani: So when you talk about abilities, a reflection that comes up for me is also that I know I have, one of my children is, it's in school already, and of course the school in Sweden, I mean, is still considered really good in comparison with many other places and, and still a lot to be desired.

[00:08:07] But as you say, I find myself also missing those things that you were talking about in terms of, The skills that really are transferable throughout your career and throughout your life, we don't really learn them in any setting. And it's only if we are so lucky to have parents or other role models around us who kind of help us with our emotional regulation with our ability to, be self aware to, to frame our own feelings to frame what's going on.

[00:08:43] And yeah, increasingly, I'm finding that, those are the things that come up in in almost every discussion I have, whether it be from the point of view of feedback, or collaboration, or any other type of thing. So what do you think we can do to... I think, yeah, I guess there are two aspects to it.

[00:09:05] One is to help people develop these abilities, but the other is to, to find people who have these abilities. Kind of two, two sides to that coin. 

[00:09:16] Andre: Yeah. I agree. And, and I think, I am in the same, I think in the same journey as you also have a kid and, and, and he just starting now, for example, primary school, right?

[00:09:26] And, and we are having the first kind of, uh, teacher, parents, dialogue and, and, uh, You know, when I was there and I was kind of engaging and understanding with them, I realized, for example, one of the things that was kind of important is that we are not measuring the same things or the same things that we had important.

[00:09:45] It was not important for them because they have, of course, their own metrics. And I have my own metrics and having that dialogue and alignment actually has really helped. And I can, I can share this, this personal story with you. And it was, my son is in the first year and then he was, he was underperforming.

[00:10:04] For example, when it came. To reading and when it came, uh, to drawing inside of the lines and when it came to, writing, right? So those were the three characteristics that they, uh, highlighted it as being critical for his progress in school, right? And, um, and then there's, okay, and we will offer additional support.

[00:10:27] So he can catch up and so on. That's okay. And I asked him and what, what will that do to his confidence? If he gets this additional support and is this the right decision that we're making it because it can also be that he feels now Different from all the other kids in his class And then and that support that is basically on the craft on that small little element that he can correct over time I believe that he could correct.

[00:10:56] He can correct. He has corrected it in in less than three months By me and my wife supporting him on a daily basis. Um, It seems to me to be a much better solution than that one, right? And this was a really tough discussion to have with them. Um, and I gave them actually what are my metrics for success?

[00:11:15] Hmm, and I said my metrics for success is that my son has to come to school and has to be happy, right? The second one is that I want him to come and to be confident about what he has to do. And the third one is that he is His craft. So his reason to build, to write and, and to read are up to date.

[00:11:35] Mm-hmm. But I don't prioritize the number three for the number two or the number first. No. Right. So, so that, that is critical that you guys understand that when we start this discussions, we have to pass through 0.1 and 0.2. Mm-hmm. And if you don't, then I will escalate this to, to the board. Right. . So, so, so to the director, because I think that your guys are measuring the wrong thing.

[00:11:56] Hmm. Um, and I think it was a difficult discussion to be had. Uh, it was very uncomfortable for them as well, but I think, and I can, as I give this, uh, example to, of my son that is in primary school, I can exactly see the same processes across both organizations and even universities. They started measuring things that they can measure that they find relevant, but that's not what makes you actually perform well in a professional setting.

[00:12:28] Shani: That's such a good point. And thank you for sharing that story. I love what you're bringing up here on aligning around the metrics and what success actually looks like. And I can definitely relate and also kind of look back and know, I worked in learning for a long time. Um, and it's the same, I think, as you're saying, you know, whether it be in school for, for a seven or eight year old, or whether it be for adults in a corporate setting, we're still kind of measuring the things that don't necessarily matter.

[00:13:01] I know I used to always ask. Do you want people to have done compliance training or do you want them to be compliant? Yeah. And these are two very different solutions and two very different discussions and, whether in this case we were talking about that, but it could be any other topic.

[00:13:17] Andre: Can I also add into that one, but also if you think about this, on those three characteristics that I have. It gave him to you. Like he has to be happy to show up. Yeah. That was the first one. The second one is that we want to, not only to that, we want to have him confident. And I think the third one that we want to have is that he will be actually good at his craft.

[00:13:38] But if we flip this around, so he's good at his craft as number one, but he is not confident and he's not happy to show up. Does that look like a good positive outcome? No, it's impossible, right? Yeah. So the metrics has to be escalated in a certain way that it makes sense for, uh, for us to join, regardless if it's in school or as a professional, we have to understand that the happiness and the confidence of performing the tasks is critical to actually be able to deliver on it.

[00:14:09] And if they are not, then, then it's, it's a really deep, it's like an uphill battle from that moment on. 

[00:14:14] Shani: Yeah, I, I released an episode with, with a man called Jim Tam last week and we were talking about collaboration and he was, he was making very similar point that you have to have both the mindset and the skill sets and one without the other is usually not really that valuable also because you can be really happy, but if you don't have the craft then you're also not, uh, able to actually bring, The value that you want or contribute in the way that you want.

[00:14:47] Andre: Yes, I fully agree. And I think when we talk as well on these things, you know, those kind of the five main categories that I think defines, for example, a professional, right? I think that craft will be one. Yeah. I think his natural abilities or kind of his personal abilities will probably be the second one.

[00:15:04] And the third one would be mindset. So he's actually, he's kind of a psychological behavior, uh, leadership and understanding of business. Those are five categories that are critical to understand, throughout your career and your, throughout your progression, um, that they, that you have to grow on those.

[00:15:23] Um, to be successful. Yeah, 

[00:15:26] Shani: that makes a lot of sense. I think, but then where have you seen this be successful? I would love to just hear, you know, you've been in a lot of different organizations and a lot of different, uh, contexts. What needs to be in place for this to, to actually be able to exist, in a, in the space of work or in life, whichever you prefer. Yeah, 

[00:15:50] Andre: no, I agree. So I have seen a lot of different organizations a little bit across, and what I have noticed is there are two types of high performance.

[00:15:58] People, at least they are the ones that the high performance on the craft side. So the ones that are really, really good specialists and there are the ones that are really good at getting on the people to join them in a one way or the other and to deliver and create value, right? And I think this is special.

[00:16:14] When you get to the higher management, you see this more and more so either they are really dominant on the area and expertise that they are in, or then they are really good at motivating and driving people forward. Um, so I think what I spend a lot of my time and to be even transparent, we should spend even more on it.

[00:16:31] It's really understanding. So I am in the phase of, can I motivate my team to be the best that they can be? That's what drives me, right? So, you know, the same time that I have to spend, in our case as designers with the users, I have to spend with my team trying to understand, okay, what are their trigger points, you know?

[00:16:48] What are some of the barriers or limitations that they have? How do I unblock them? How do I empower them? How do I drive them forward? Um, and that requires a lot of time and a lot of thought and a lot of experimenting as well with them to figure out what drives them through. And I think that in those areas, you know, I don't think there is a magic recipe, but I think there is.

[00:17:13] Uh, those basic steps of a being aware of what can, what is expected or what is possible, and then mapping them even if it's mentally kind of your team into those characteristics and say, okay, you know, this is the areas that we either need to keep on doing it, or this is the areas that we need to improve and ensure that then they feel confident, and confident and happy to do their job because that's the only thing that you have to do, but it requires really a lot of time.

[00:17:42] I spend a lot of time on it. 

[00:17:45] Shani: Yeah, I like the fact that you're kind of taking those same principles that you talk about innovation, just applying them to you, to your leadership. Um, I would love to dig into that a little bit more actually. What, what is needed then from you as a leader to even more more concretely.

[00:18:03] and guide people to be that kind of happy or confident you have any stories to share? 

[00:18:08] Andre: Uh, if it is, for example, through, so there are two levels, of course, one is if it's through my, through the level of my team and kind of my direct reports, there is really about, it's basically user research, but let's, let's call it a slightly different, but it's really you're trying to dig deep into their, mindset and abilities and so on.

[00:18:31] But it's really trying to spend time with them. A line that, you know, I cannot meet, but we should be spending probably between 60 to 80% of our time with our employees, trying to understand how to do that because there are extensions of you. And if I want the quality of the work to scale, I have to scale through them.

[00:18:51] Right. I cannot do it myself. So therefore I need a team around me and now I have to spend time with them so they can actually become, um, do more than what I can do by myself. So that's of course one, one aspect of it. Um, so, so it's both, uh, understanding them and there's also driving, helping them to drive their skill sets forward.

[00:19:13] I think the other one that is slightly different is when you go in, for example, you interact in leadership. With other disciplines, right? And they have other different characteristics. And there, of course, there are some things that helps, um, something that are personal, but there are at least two main characteristics that I use.

[00:19:31] So let me maybe rephrase this. There are three. One is that I tend to be in meetings in the leadership. I tend to be, uh, uh, honest and transparent. Every single time and that is both sometimes good and bad, but but it is like if things are not correct I am the one that has to be admitting and saying this is not correct.

[00:19:53] And this is why and Sometimes I can get I would say, in uncomfortable situations, but they have to happen And I'm very happy that I'm facilitating those uncomfortable situations. Um, I think the second one that I also do is that I always try to use what I call, and I think we have to do more as well in design is, it's, data kind of data driven.

[00:20:20] Discussions, right? So when I'm discussing with somebody, it's not really about my opinion or what do I see. It's really about what are the things that is important for us? How do we think that we are behaving or measuring them and then pushing that through very much with my, the discussion that I had with the teachers on the case of my son, right?

[00:20:38] I mean, We were just measuring the wrong things. So, so therefore we're measuring two things, uh, slightly different. So we can go in circles with this, but until I can clearly limitate and say, these are the things that I want to measure and I don't want to measure anything or beyond this right now, I think those are really important discussions to be had and then defining the strategy on, on how to actually go about it.

[00:21:01] And then I think the third one that I always also bring is that when you get into management and higher levels, a lot of it, it's also about both the personal connections that you can have, but you're also your augmentation and your communication ability. Um, so how to dilute a very complex problem into two, three sentences that allows everyone in the room to basically understand what you're attempting to say.

[00:21:27] So I think that in the leadership at least is probably the three things that I spend most of my time or improving as well myself, because I'm, you know, nobody's perfect and I still have a long way to go. 

[00:21:41] Shani: Yeah, we all do. I think I find that there's always one, one plan that is opening up and you're discovering always new things.

[00:21:50] Uh, are there so much that I would love to just dive into a little one is actually a thing that also comes up and, and a lot. I think that comes up from different levels, both in terms of personal growth, but also in terms of leading teams towards creating value towards being creative is kind of facilitating these moments of discomfort that you talk about.

[00:22:13] And you make it sound easy, and I guess, you know, part of it's because you've spent a lot of time in this space that many people are just approaching it. Um, what does that look like facilitating a moment like that of disagreement or of any type of friction? How, what's, what are your, like, what are your best tricks to move through and move forward?

[00:22:36] Andre: No, I, I agree. I made this decision a couple of years back. And, uh, my, the decision that I have made is that. I will always say what I think it needs to be said because it makes me really sleep well at night.

[00:22:47] And when I don't say the things that I want to say, then is when I go home and I have a bad night of sleep because I'm thinking I should have said it and I didn't do it. And now when do I say it when I have this opportunity again, and there are all of those elements. But. You know, and by doing this, I mean, what I also have created is this kind of professional I would say persona or this professional attitude that everybody expects the same, I also expect them the same for me, right?

[00:23:13] I will just enter into the meeting. And if I think that there is a point that is being misrepresented or mislooked, um, It's really a, addressing it. And of course, then the level of kind of confrontational, you can, that you will learn. Um, often I try to, not pointing out that maybe the thing that is being done is not the correct way, but I'll try to reframe it.

[00:23:35] Like, what are we actually attempting to solve with this? Because I don't understand what is the relevance of. This in this conversation. And generally, if you start asking questions about, um, why is this a problem? You normally will get to the core of what it is. It's okay. Now, let me see if I understand correctly.

[00:23:55] And then you push it out again. And you say, is this correctly? And then you're actually ping ponging with a team on trying to figure out Exactly what it needs to be done. And I think that is basically a very important characteristic of trying to ask, not, not trying to answer or shoring your point of view, but again, trying to ask the question until you are clear of actually what is being discussed.

[00:24:19] So I think that that is really an important one. Um, the other one that I also find. The thing that frustrates me the most right now is that I'm in a meeting, we, we get to a critical moment. This is a critical moment in our organization, in every organization that we have to go and have a discussion about it.

[00:24:39] And then we are tempted to have this discussion, then somebody says, well, I have a next meeting. And then, you know, it's like, I need to step out. And I'm also guilty of doing this myself, right? And sometimes I'm thinking, but should we step out? Yeah. I mean, this is a critical problem that we are facing. We are now engaged in this conversation.

[00:24:57] Shouldn't we all clear our schedules? Right. And I'll say, is this, what I was thinking about this in my head, like, is, you know, I put a numeric number, this is an X million dollar question. And I hope that your next meeting addresses that X million dollar question, because if it doesn't, then maybe you should stay.

[00:25:16] Right. Because that is really the point is that it's, it's not that I have my day pre programmed to go from point A to point B is that my day should be pre programmed to do the most important things in the organization. And that. It's the most important thing in the organization, not going to my next meeting.

[00:25:32] So I think that is also something that sometimes helps, uh, in this discussions and avoids, let's clean our agendas and let's spend two days in a workshop because we really need to get to the end of this. That is critical. 

[00:25:45] Shani: Yeah, I love that. Also, like, very much your design principle of falling in love with the problem, but I really appreciate the point that you're bringing up, that we underestimate, I think, also sometimes the power of the process.

[00:26:01] Mm hmm. And we would love for everything to be able to be solved within these however many minutes we put to our meetings. But actually, sometimes it's about this accumulation of, as you're saying, this ping ponging of why and this and digging deep and, and it takes time. I find that, especially when we talk about creativity and problem solving, we tend to still take a very kind of industrial linear approach to it.

[00:26:27] When we think about it, we go, well, it shouldn't take this long. But sometimes it does. Sometimes it takes, as you say, more hours or even days of people going back and forth and taking a break and coming out and coming in again and gathering some inputs and coming back. How do we, how do we even make space for that?

[00:26:47] Andre: Yeah, it's a difficult one, right? And sometimes I think what is very difficult to do is to defend why should you spend time doing and I also can, we all go to interviews and we all bring a script with us because we all want to show up to the interview and not be empty handed it. Um, so, and then of course, when you have the script, you say, I probably can run the script in just about one hour, right?

[00:27:13] So, so 45 minutes, maybe if I'm lucky and therefore then you are kind of constraining and timeboxing yourself already, even. start, maybe the customer or your, the people that you're engaged with will even stay longer, but, but you're already mentally kind of time framed to this, nine to five mentality and how do you maximize your day?

[00:27:31] Um, so I, I'm always, I do book larger amounts of time for myself. And I think also when I think that is a big, important problem that I need to address large amount of times to not have a full plan, have kind of a. Very, open ended plan where I will run you through these exercises and we will have this amount of time to have some discussions, but I can throw that plan easily away if I think that, it needs to be thrown away.

[00:27:59] Um, and, and then really sit there in the problem for long periods of time with the people and try to solve the, and it's really funny that I think that most of the challenges that I find is miscommunication or misinterpretation of either the problem or each other. Right. That is really the point. We communicated it.

[00:28:19] I have things that's like, I have communicated multiple times. I have presentations and slides and, and videos about this. And then I still enter into a meeting and say, you know, we are addressing the problem. It's like, but that's not what I have said. This is what I have said, or this is what I meant when I said it.

[00:28:35] And and it's not representing my point. And I think those are, you know, you can only have this kind of. Alignment in a format that is both open ended it, uh, and that you also believe and trust that you will get to the result because you have to have that belief. If not, you then time frame it to one hour.

[00:28:54] And yeah, and you go question after question. 

[00:28:58] Shani: I really like that open ended creating time that makes a lot of sense. I like what you're saying also, and I share in your experience is quite often we don't go anywhere because we haven't even aligned on the problem. I've seen so many projects sink just because of that fact that there are 10 people and everyone has their view on what we're solving.

[00:29:23] And then you get one month into the thing and somebody pulls the brake and goes, Hey, this is not what I wanted out of it. This is not the impact I wanted. And then all the time is. Spend just mitigating and negotiating between people rather than putting, that same energy into, into actually creating some value and creating solutions.

[00:29:43] So I think from my side, definitely one of the things that always, and always that always creates a little bit of friction with people because, and especially, I've worked on the employee side, my, my whole work life. And every time you say, Maybe we should just spend two weeks talking to employees.

[00:30:02] People go, Oh, no, no, there's no time for that. Just solve it. Yeah, but are we sure about what we're solving? Are we sure about what value we need to come out with? Are we sure how we can evaluate our success? No, but I'm sure we kind of know. Okay. And then, and then we go nowhere. 

[00:30:22] Andre: How often does that happen that we kind of know, we kind of know what the, what is the answer, but then we have not done any investigation, right?

[00:30:31] So often we kind of, we have not looked into this, but we kind of know. That tends to be something that I face very often, regardless if it's in human resources, uh, you know, design of organizations or even in projects, we always think that we know, but we have not really spent the time, um, investigating and understanding this kind of empathy aspect of things that we, that, that I think it's, uh, It's critical, 

[00:30:58] Shani: right?

[00:30:59] It is. I think one of my first, actually, and biggest design lessons, many years back, I was working with a service designer, and she was just giving me a run through. And I think it's partially timing, but I remember she said to me, You know those moments when you're fighting with somebody? Doesn't have to be at work, it could be at home, and you say, I know why you're saying this, this is because you think this and this and that, and that is really s Whatever opinion you have about it.

[00:31:29] And I remember, like, I felt it in my body when she said it, I thought, Yeah, I've done that. She said, Yeah, don't do that. You never know. And I remember actually how my first practice of this, this ability was actually being at home and, and in my closer relationships and paying attention to when I was just acting from assumption.

[00:31:53] And then in that moment going, Hmm, let me ask a question instead. And so it's also I find it really interesting, because a lot of these principles, there is opportunity to practice this everywhere in life, it doesn't have to be in a corporate setting where you're trying to build a product, it can be with your son in first grade or Or with your partner or with a good friend.

[00:32:17] It doesn't really matter. It's, uh, it's very much a principle for life. 

[00:32:21] Andre: No, absolutely. And I think also when you make that statement, right, because, um, it's also sometimes you're a little bit, we can be emotionally loaded, right? And in that case, you were a little bit, your example that you're giving is that when you're emotionally loaded and you also, if you see, it's like, so are you telling me?

[00:32:40] And then you, and then you kind of, uh, imply the answer that you want to hear, right? Because that's basically what, when you, when you start saying that. And I think sometimes it's often better to say, so if I understood you correctly, is this your point? And then allow the other person to clarify, because then you're not telling him.

[00:33:01] This, you're just trying to understand if your perception Is the same as what he says. And in the first point when you are emotionally loaded, then basically you are throwing your perception at him. And that generally is a good start of a, of a fight. Of a 

[00:33:16] Shani: fight. Yeah, it's not a good start of a creative solution.

[00:33:21] Yeah, that is very true. I love that rewrites. It's important to have these little things in our toolbox, because then we can catch ourselves and we have something to To put into play. Um, but I also like where you're pointing out here about the emotional load. And I, and I also find this to be true a lot, even in work situations, because we spend so much of our time and engagement into projects and solutions and, and.

[00:33:46] I know I've been there a lot with, with groups where somebody goes, but I, I worked on this for four months. Yes. But is it working? No. Okay, then, you know, then we need to see what we can pick apart and reutilize in a different way. And we, we hold on so much also. So there is usually. even in that space of being creative or, or problem solving.

[00:34:10] We also get stuck with our emotions and we get attached to the things that we do and our work. And it's, it, that's really hard. 

[00:34:18] Andre: It is very difficult. And I think, and I'm with you, I have been in those moments where where I have been, uh, you know, I think I have done the research and I know exactly what needs to be built and, and I'm, I'm tired and exhausted and, and I think it's, it, it's a home run.

[00:34:33] And then I get to the meeting and it's not a home run, right? It's actually, uh, there is still some work to be done, uh, and now internally and, uh, and, and, and that, and then how to manage kind of your emotions. When you do that and, and. You know, there is not really good way. I think that different people have different personalities and then how to manage that is difficult.

[00:34:53] I do have a tendency if I think that the meeting is not going to go in the, if I'm, you know, emotionally loaded, I tend to say, you know, maybe, maybe it is not a good moment to give the answer right now. I would need some time to rethink about it because I'm pretty sure that what I will say now is maybe not the most rational thing that will come out of this conversation today.

[00:35:16] So that is also possible sometimes to do. Yeah. And that is only just at the moment of, you know, if we think that it's, uh. If, if we need a break or kind of a period of time that allows us to cool down and then you can rejoin. And sometimes even five, 10 minutes is enough, uh, to, to have that little break, uh, and to allow to, you know, everybody to cool down and then figure out, okay, let's go back to the, to the logics.

[00:35:44] But what I also wanted to say, and you brought it up, um, a little bit clear what, what, uh, in the beginning, when you were mentioning. About like the project, uh, shut setups and what the success look like. And I think those are really what I like to have those conversations really early on. Right. And, and, and those are really important, uh, not to define, not to be specific about how would that be, but to be like, you know, uh, in the beginning of the project, it's so vague, uh, that.

[00:36:18] It's difficult to actually define how it, how success looks like, but in that attempt, it kind of crystallizes at least what are the measurement points that you will have. And then what I have found out is that when I come back and I'm trying to engage back with the management or, you know, with the teams on, on what is this, and then I'm receiving, you know, negative feedback, then it's also good that we always go back.

[00:36:41] Okay. This is how we agreed that we were going to measure it. Right. And then we can discuss about, did we choose the wrong measurements? I'm fine. Thank you. But then it's like, but then according to this parameters that we set up in the beginning, this is either successful or not successful. And that pivots the discussion because I'm also pivoting the discussion after often after opinions into this is what was agreed.

[00:37:03] Um, and if you don't, if you have a different agreement than mine, that is not my responsibility, but that was the only agreement that I have made. And that's also important to have those discussions, even if it's in blurry terms on how the success looks like really early on. 

[00:37:20] Shani: I really like that. And I think we've been ping ponging between like, you know, what does this setup look like, that allows us to, to actually solve problems?

[00:37:35] But on the other hand, like, how do we need to step into that context? Um, Who do we need to be? Which I think is such a, it's such an important piece of the puzzle as well. 

[00:37:48] What do you find to be the best way to stimulate and support evolving kind of What is, what is needed for, for innovation and creativity in terms of mindset? 

[00:38:00] Andre: Yeah, I don't know in terms of innovation, I cannot say, but I can maybe say something a little bit more about the career ladder, because I think that could be also, for example, an interesting angle to start this dialogue.

[00:38:12] What I notice a lot when I talk with my designers is that they have this ambition to become. I just had this conversation a couple of days ago, it was an ex designer of mine. And then she was telling us, my goal, she's just starting her career. She just has two or three years of experience.

[00:38:30] And then she says, you know, my goal is in the next year to become a senior. For example, right. And you'd be like, okay, yeah, I mean, I think this is a good ambition and you should drive towards this. And then I ask, what are the characteristics that you think a senior should have? Right. And in her case, there is, in her organization, there are not really a lot of good seniors.

[00:38:53] So it's natural that she looks at the other seniors and she's like, okay, I, I need to be good at my craft. I need to be, you know, I just need to do a couple of prototypes here and I need just two killer projects and then I become a senior and, and then I think here is really where creating that benchmark really helps on what are the characteristics.

[00:39:14] And I told her, you know, when I started my career, I one time went to my senior and he was 50 years old and I told him I have this great idea. And then he told me that he had this great idea 20 years ago. And then, uh, and then I thought that maybe it's not such a great idea, but I'm, of course, trying to, uh, when I tell the story, number one is that I'm trying to give them the timeframe that was a senior for me in a very mature organization, right?

[00:39:43] That person had 20 years of experience. If you have three and you want to become senior next year, maybe we should have to figure out if the timeframe is correct for you. So that is just to give them kind of a context of actually, you know. Uh, what it takes to become a senior, but then the other one is then, what are the characteristics that a good senior has to, you know, have to be, and they say, she said, Oh, they have to be leaders.

[00:40:09] So they have to learn how to, you know, mentor and culture, create a culture inside of the team, have to be able to in interest on people. What are examples that you can give me today that in the last three years you have express those characteristics? Uh, not yet, but if I had the opportunity, I could do it.

[00:40:30] Okay. So now let's find opportunities for you and let's spend some time in this opportunities, you know, until we figure out if this is really for yourself. I think early promotions. Are probably the biggest disaster that can happen in an organization is people that are unprepared that are fighting for the title.

[00:40:49] They get the title and then two things happen. If you're underneath that person, you think, Oh, I'm screwed. This is a big bad moment for me. Now this person doesn't have the abilities and the skill set to, you know, to actually bring me to where I need to be. But I think the other one that also happens is that you also lose respect inside of the organization.

[00:41:10] You gain the title, but you lose respect because now everybody looks at you like, ah, you shouldn't be there. And that's also a really big, you know, important aspect. So I think that throughout your career just to resume is that if you want to progress through your career I think that between as intern mindset abilities and craft are the three main ones that you have to be mature, you know, are maturing into when you enter to senior, you'll, you'll notice that there is really where your abilities and kind of your leadership style has to start maturing.

[00:41:48] And then as you move into more like, um, higher management, what you will notice is that. Your craft actually starts decreasing because you are not now operating the craft. So actually becoming worse and worse, employee and your craft is not no more up to date. But then what actually is growing in you is basically either your ability.

[00:42:07] So, communication style, relatable to people, be a team player. It's also the leadership style. So it's like, what are the characteristics inside of this leadership? You know, how do you motivate people? How do you drive them for any understanding of the business, both internally and external, right?

[00:42:23] And those are really important characteristics that you have to do. And your craft is decreasing drastically and that is just by consequence, right? 

[00:42:32] Shani: Because you're spending all your time on, on the relationships. Exactly. I like what you're saying around the fact that as we grow and we evolve a mindset, we need to actually do what we talked about in the creative process.

[00:42:47] We need to kind of befriend our, our, what success looks like and, and translate that into, okay, so. Who does that mean that we need to be? What does it mean that we get to practice? What are opportunities that we, that we get to pursue? And so actually kind of the design process applies to, most, to most things.

[00:43:07] Um, and, and I hear what you're saying. I definitely think that, a certain seniority and responsibility, uh, demands different things of us. I think recently I've been exploring quite a lot. Back into self led scenarios where there is, maybe leading by example is always the thing, but but distributing your leadership in different ways, which maybe means that seniority can be more easily accessible to people more quickly or not, because it might demand a completely different emotional maturity to, to be in those situations.

[00:43:44] So that can for sure, yeah. Change things. And also, I think while listening to you, I was also thinking we're in this really big shift right now. And I would definitely hope that when people go through this process, as you say, identifying how they climb up the ladder, that we also simultaneously ask ourselves what we're discovering, what is being rewarded, what is being needed currently in organizations.

[00:44:15] Is this the way we want it to be led in the future? 'cause as you say, I also think that some of the things you're going to like unearth while you're doing that discovery will be things where you go, Hmm, I don't want to be that person. Uh, I don't want to succeed on these metrics. 

[00:44:34] Andre: Yeah. Or those are not the ones that fully agree with you.

[00:44:37] And, and just to be honest, I agree with you and in your statement, I don't think that, for example, seniorship is a question of. Time. It's a question of, um, I think, you know, mindset and skill sets around those. Right. So I think that some people get it sooner than later. I think having seniorship, um, just focus on the, uh, how many years you have been in a company is not the right metrics.

[00:45:03] So that I fully agree with you. But what I'm also trying to point out is that it takes time. It really takes time. It takes time to, to develop your skills and abilities on those, on those. Areas that you need to, um, to do. And, um, and I think that, I, I agree with you in the sense, I think that career ladders, um, as I presented it, I think it's probably a little bit of a traditional one.

[00:45:27] Um, I think that probably we're in a more, much more kind of fluent, um, Area these days, where we're probably career ladders, people that bring value inside of an organization might not totally fit to this career ladder that I just expressed. So there are, I think there are some opportunities to have some people that have high impact, but maybe don't fit exactly the career ladder.

[00:45:49] So they are kind of in a vacuum. Um, and those I think it really depends a little bit on your manager and the person that is managing on how to handle it and how to position you in the right spot. But once again, it's that discussion about the design aspects that we talk about. This is really understanding your employee, figuring out what is his goals and dreams, where he where we want to position him or where he wants to position himself and then making that plan and have.

[00:46:21] I know weekly, I was going to say daily, but but if not daily, like really regular conversations about, you know, their behavior and how they are progressing. And, you know, how, you know, is it helping or do we need to change some things around until we find this? Perfect spot. It is not an easy path.

[00:46:40] It is a dialogue and that has to happen often and as often as possible until you find a good fit that on one side solves the problems for the organization but on the other side also solves the problems, for, for the employee himself that he wants to be happy and confident doing the things that he loves.

[00:47:01] Shani: I like what you're saying. It makes me think of Just, I like to turn it around sometimes with these things that I know we put a lot of expectations on leaders to solve problems for people and guide and do and, and I think, especially with the hybrid setting, it puts also certain expectations into question.

[00:47:22] And sometimes we're very quick to Put a lot of responsibility on the individual. And I think for me and also what a lot of, of like intentional design and designing experiences also teaches us is. That we can also put more things into play to make it possible. So, of course, other people are a really important part of your experience, and how it pans out, and it's also really important how structures are shaped around to make certain conversations happen, certain moves possible, and how The organization itself, not just the leader, but the organization actually has things in place to make it possible to make it a little bit easier, both for whoever is guiding the individual and the individual themselves to like be be on that journey.

[00:48:14] So, I agree with you. And I think, uh, sometimes we also need to, consider. What is needed from, whether it's a process or something else that supports that, to just make that journey possible for people that can, that can really lift, and enhance it. 

[00:48:35] Andre: I fully agree. And I was just thinking about this.

[00:48:37] I mean, what is I mean, it's probably in the in the meaning of the world. What is an organization, right? I mean, organization is both, you know, a process and the methodology of how to, you know, aligned or organize, right? Your resources in the most effective way. Right. And, and, and, and I think what often, uh, is misspelled is that it's not done from the bottom up, it's done from a top down, right?

[00:49:08] And if, um, if we talk about this organization of those resources that are human resources, um, in a top down way, basically means that you're creating boxes and then assigning people into those boxes. And that is normally the beginning of a bad organization. right? Because what you should do is that you should understand where what are the goals that you have to achieve in organization, then build a more organic and maybe human centric way on on how to provide value for this organization.

[00:49:41] And I have seen organizations that, I have been in a recent one. When I saw this, you know, we read a book and the book says, this is the way that it has to be done. So we are going to make boxes and you're going to shove people in those boxes. And then, and then you, you are, it's up to the employee then to decide, um, if I will kind of dilute myself to be fitting in that boxes, or I have to expand myself and find a new organization that actually meets my demands.

[00:50:10] Right. And, and People, at least employees and people, you know, time and thought and energy is what makes an organization drive, not the other way around. So I think it's, we underestimate drastically. You know, the, the ways that we organize. And I think we were still organized in such a sense, it feels a little bit 19th century.

[00:50:37] And I was hoping that we, we had cracked that in the 20th century, right? So I think we have a good way to go. I, you know, we have not progressed as much as I probably 

[00:50:49] Shani: would like. No, I I'm, I'm a hundred percent with you on that. I would have loved for us to have. gone past some of those kind of linear concepts of organizing ourselves.

[00:51:01] Um, it is, it is hard. I find myself even now, as I've stepped out into entrepreneurship, how much has been just indoctrinated into my mind. And I, I find myself questioning a lot of things. Oh, no, I owe this time. No, I don't. I mean, I owe it to me and to the success of my endeavors. But yeah, there's a there's a lot to crack there.

[00:51:24] But I really like what you're saying. And also, want to add that, I usually call it the sandwich. It's and it can be like, whether you're talking about problem solving or organizing yourselves is it's not it's not Top down. It's also not entirely a bottom up. It's both at the same time, you have to both consider where you're going.

[00:51:46] And as we were on to in the beginning, you know, what value are we wanting to create? What is it that we want to be able to bring to ourselves and to others? And then on the side also as what what do we need? for ourselves to get there. And at the same time kind of dealing with these questions, and not skipping one or the other all the time, because that's why we're together in an organization, we want to achieve something together.

[00:52:14] We shouldn't ignore those goals, for sure. But also, not ignore ourselves. So yeah, there, there are lots of ways and we still have some way to go. So maybe to that, like, if we do wanna, if we do want to, uh, hurry up that shift away, away from the, from the more industrial 19th century thinking and in, to this century, And infuse more creativity into our teams, um, and to ourselves, what are maybe your like top few actions that you could boil down to if I want to start today, like honing in on my mindset or encouraging that in a team around me, what can I do?

[00:53:05] Andre: Um, you know, I think that it is hopefully as a, even not as a starting point, but as Pre standard point, you already have somebody in your organization that has some of those characteristics that you can point out and say, this is a good starting point, uh, for it. Um, so I have learned more about people around me than I could actually ever have done it if I will just went through a self, development phase.

[00:53:36] So just observing and figuring out, okay, what they do, that's very important. What I think that the new generations, probably would, um, need if I would, if I would think a little bit broader, I think is resilience is probably one of the main aspects that I think that we will struggle now.

[00:53:54] I mean, the rotation of jobs is super fast right now and very low resistance. So friction and resilience is probably one of the main characteristics inside of mindset that are important. And the other one I would also mention is like collaboration. So, um, if you're not able to collaborate or if you have difficulty with collaboration with different, uh, both, uh, people or different disciplines, that is an area that you have to spend a lot of your time, in a side of an organization is very, very rarely that you will operate by yourself.

[00:54:28] Then what we spend a lot of. Time to talking about both self awareness, but also just awareness to your manager and communicating with your manager, with your people on, on, you know, what are the things that you want to, you know, either develop with yourself or how you're feeling, or how can we improve certain process or certain, activity.

[00:54:52] I think the last one, but not least, and I think that is also not often, uh, really talked about in a very important characteristic in mindset as well that I always think about it very often is both personal safety and security. Sometimes we have people that have high ambition, high tenacity, and they're going after everything and also that they have to gain a sense of, personal safety or kind of security and understanding that, Certain areas can create exhaustion, and that can be the, you know, it can actually influence your behavior and your kind of performance, I would say as well.

[00:55:29] So those are probably the critical ones inside of mindsets that comes to mind. 

[00:55:37] Shani: Amazing. Before we finish, I still want to ping pong this back to you ever so slightly, because all of these, of course, make a huge amount of sense. And these are a lot of the same words that pop onto my radar. Resilience, collaboration, self awareness.

[00:55:53] Being mindful of your energy and finding your role models. Um, and then I'm thinking that might feel really abstract. So maybe what's, what is the first question or action that somebody can take towards that direction? 

[00:56:11] Like, how do I become more resilient or, um, yeah, or more collaborative. Yeah, 

[00:56:18] Andre: well, I think there is, um, if you have, if you are able to, I think the first point is, are you able to pinpoint, I think that, you know, what are those, elements and I'm making the suggestions, right? For example, resilience is one of them.

[00:56:34] And then I think you should spend some time in thought. It's like, am I resilient? And when was last time that I given up on something? And why did I given up on that thing? And I think spending really deep thoughts and kind of self awareness on it. And then I think the other one that I always do is that then I will identify with either a peer or my manager or colleagues or multiple colleagues You know, what do they perceive me there as being because sometimes our self perception might be a little bit distortion distorted and then understand, and I think from their moment on when, if you have identified it yourself, if you have asked for feedback, and it has been kind of equally, um, I would say, uh, delimitated that this is an area to improve is actively finding strategies.

[00:57:23] On how to be more resilient, right? And, and, and, and it only starts with self awareness. Right? Often there are things that now, uh, I'm, now I'm not working so much on resilience, but a couple of years I was working on resistance and there was so many times that I wanted to give up on something, but then because I was aware that I was working on resilience, it's like, I can't.

[00:57:47] Because I know, know that I'm not. So, so, so it is not, it's really, and it, it, it feels like it's taking time and energy for example. But I think it's regardless of which characteristics we talk about, I think being self aware and asking for a second point of view or third point of view, and then actively finding strategies that would work for you would be good.

[00:58:09] And then depending on what are those characteristics, um, You could find different strategies. I was give you one last example is I had a really good colleague of mine that he was very I think his main characteristics was it was tenacity and and it was great Argumentation and communication skills.

[00:58:31] So when we would enter into a meeting he would actually fully drive that meeting And kind of arguing and pivot things and move forward. And that was not a skill set that I had. And I, you know, my strategy was to enter the meeting with him and just observe him, see how he does it, which type of techniques is he using in that and try to incorporate it into my own, uh, you know, behavior.

[00:58:57] Um, so in that case, for example, it is really, you know, the best case is it was observation. On the resilience is actually self awareness and then eliminating the doubt. So depending on which characteristic, um, that you might find different strategies. 

[00:59:13] Shani: I love that. Love that addition. Thank you so much for that.

[00:59:18] And um, yeah, definitely self awareness. I can get on board with, with that. And I love your example on resilience also, because it's definitely something that's dominant when we start paying attention to it, we see it everywhere. It pops up everywhere and it becomes important. So just, yeah, bringing something into focus has a lot of power on its own for sure.

[00:59:43] I've had a lot of fun talking about. all, all these things with you. So thank you so much for, for coming on and sharing your wisdom and experiences. 

[00:59:52] Andre: Thank you for having me and, uh, let's have this again. Yes, 

[00:59:56] Shani: let's. Thank you for listening to the Experienced Designers.

[01:00:01] I hope this episode brought you some new insight and some new topics to stop and wonder about. Special thanks to Andrej for sharing his experience, observations, and well tested strategies. And, as usual, don't forget to click subscribe, and as always, get in touch with any questions or suggestions. That's how better experiences are built.