Ep. 043 – Anamaria Dorgo - Building community
In a quick-paced and demanding work environment, community is something many companies and individuals seek to build - to be less alone, to become more creative, to solve problems more effectively.
With Anamaria Dorgo’s unique voice and experience in community building, we explore what makes a good community. And how we go about creating communities that add value to both the people in them and the world around them…
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About Anamaria:
Anamaria Dorgo is a Learning Experience Designer, Facilitator, and the Head of Community at Butter. With degrees in psychology and human resources, she has a lifelong commitment to learning, resulting in her creating engaging learning experiences for a global community. Through her role at Butter.us, she is striving to build a platform that facilitates collaboration and professional growth amongst facilitators, trainers, design thinkers, educators and consultants.
In her free time, Anamaria nurtures a global online community of practice for Learning & Development professionals called L&D Shakers, which was awarded the Silver Learning Give Back Award 2023 by the Learning and Performance Institute. As a freelancer, she partners up with organizations to build communities from within and design collaborative, social, and memorable learning experiences.
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EP. 043 Transcription
[00:00:00] Shani: Hi,
[00:00:02] my name is Shani and welcome to the Experience Designers Podcast, where we explore the human experience,
[00:00:08] what it is and how we might create better ones for
[00:00:11] ourselves and for others.
[00:00:15] You're facing a challenge that you don't know how to solve. You're living through a difficult moment. You want to expand on your passions.
[00:00:24] You want to drive change.
[00:00:27] What do you do? Many of us seek others. Seek
[00:00:31] community to support us on our journey.
[00:00:35] But what is actually a
[00:00:37] community? It isn't enough to just gather people together. Something else has to happen for that sense of community
[00:00:47] to happen.
[00:00:49] In this episode, I'm joined by Ana Maria Dorgo, Head of Community at Butter and founder of L& D Shakers.
[00:00:57] A 4, 000 people strong global community driving change within learning and development. We dive into the ingredients of community. How do we set a community up for success? What do we actually do once we are in there?
[00:01:12] And what muscles do we need to practice
[00:01:15] individually to make it flourish? And can a community actually be led?
[00:01:22] Let's explore together. Let's rock and roll, really. Uh, super excited to, uh, to be face to face digitally with you, Anna Maria, diving into community with you. Uh, you hoo, I'm excited. . Yeah, we had a
[00:01:40] Anamaria: couple of chats. This is going to be a good one. I'm always very happy to bounce off ideas with you. Somehow we always end up in the most, uh, interesting places.
[00:01:49] Shani: Yeah. Okay. Let's, let's explore. Yeah, I was just gonna say it's going to be an exploration today. Um, and first, first and foremost, I always wanna start with you and who you are. Um, You have a head of community title, you've, when you look back at what you've done, it's learning community, learning community.
[00:02:11] Um, yeah, I have a lot of questions, but maybe the first one is like, who are you and why did you end up on this path with community. Yay.
[00:02:22] Anamaria: Um, I'm Romanian. I live in the Netherlands for the past four years and a half. It's going to be on like five soon. And, uh, my background is, uh, very people focused. Uh, so I've been working many years in HR as an HR business partner.
[00:02:41] And I have a bachelor in psychology. And then after that initial experience in HR business partnering, I fell in love with learning, learning workshops, trainings, and so on through the work I was doing, but especially through a couple of extracurricular activities that I did as a student. student. And I always looked at trainers and the people holding, creating that space.
[00:03:08] And I thought like, wow, this is so magical. I love those experiences that were, it wasn't school. It was after school beyond school. And those were the most impactful spaces where I felt more creative and challenged. And I thought, I want to be that person. I didn't know they were trainers or what they were working, but I always thought like, I really want to enable that for other people to have the experience that I'm having.
[00:03:29] Uh right now so I pivoted from HR business partner to learning and development and I was I landed in a Amazing dutch startup scale up company quite young and I was the only L& D person in the team And so I stumbled really into this community building. Um Life by mistake if you want When I almost went out to Outsource my team.
[00:03:54] I was like, okay, I don't have a team here. I'm alone I was also reporting to the retail director. So the to the commercial side of the business, which was amazing for my role, but um I was like I need to talk with other people doing what I do. I want to see what they're working on I want to get feedback On my work to know where can I improve and what can get better And I went to the good old linkedin and approached a couple of strangers here in amsterdam and asked them Hey, do you want to get together?
[00:04:24] Maybe once a month and kind of like bounce off ideas see what you're working on what i'm working on and kind of just learn from each other And half of them said yes. And so that's kind of, we packed everyone in a LinkedIn group because that's where we met. Um, and we started meeting offline before the pandemic that was 2019.
[00:04:43] That's the end of the year. And that was the beginning of what today is Alanis Shakers. It's a global online community of learning and development professionals. Over 4, 000 people from all over the world, loads and loads of learning opportunities, projects, experiments, and so on. I always call it a learning playground.
[00:05:04] That's what it is for me and for other, for other, other members. And, uh, two years ago, it was someone from L& D Shakers that reached out to Jacob, the CEO at Butter. which is the team I'm part of, as the head of, head of community at Butter. And they were searching for someone to start this project. Um, and this person from L&D Shakers reached out to him and said, you need to talk to Anamaria.
[00:05:28] She's the person. And, uh, and they reached out and I thought, hmm, interesting. Weird, like I was also there like a bit scared because I thought why are these people contacting me for a community manager role. I'm an L& D person. And yeah, I am part of a community or I have a community or, you know, I was already with L& D Shakers for two years.
[00:05:52] Um, but my identity wasn't that of a community builder. And so I got intrigued. And I guess somewhere in the back of my mind, I always thought like, is that I was having so much fun with community building and it was such a different way of learning and such a different experience than learning within companies, in schools, uni, for everything I experienced prior to that.
[00:06:13] And I think somewhere in the back of my mind, I always probably was having that reflection. Is this what I'm meant to do? Is this the thing is how it can bring my contribution to the world and my talent and so on. And so it wasn't, it wasn't an easy decision to take. Um, I actually had a hard time taking that decision because I love learning and L& D and I love my, I love that team and manager like I was, I wasn't looking for a change.
[00:06:38] But in the end I said, you know what, this came my way. And eventually I know that I would have gone back to that exploration sooner or later because my mind was already like. What is this community, like, attracting me like a magnet. So that's where I am, head of community. And head, I may sound fancy, whatever, it's just, it's just the title.
[00:07:01] And it simply implies that I am leading this project. Nothing more. You're
[00:07:05] Shani: leading the project. Yeah, actually, that was the question that arose for me when I read the title. Can you be head of a community?
[00:07:13] Anamaria: Oh, how much time do we have? I, uh, yes and no. And I admit, I've changed my mind so many times with regards to this.
[00:07:27] And probably what I'm saying today is going to be totally different than what I think, you know, in a year from now. But, um, here are some of the thoughts that I have or experience, experiences I've made. And I see this similarities and differences in between other shakers, which is a community of practice.
[00:07:44] It's not associated or affiliated to a product in the case of the butter community. So the the moment I started working at at butter. This is a role, uh, I'm getting paid to, for this job. So, yes, there was a bit of a more strategy behind, if you want. So, if you want to think of it as almost like, like the person that sets a direction or a vision and then the way to get there you can still decide as a community lead, head, whatever you're called, you can still decide to bring in your members into supporting you and helping you find the every single step, one, two, three, four, to get you to that direction.
[00:08:36] And at first I was very, like, very firm and saying, no, communities, they have to emerge organically and they're distributed and fully co created and no one takes the, like, there's no hierarchy in that sense and no leader. And, and I see things slightly different now because I think, uh, yes, you can have Co creation collaborative.
[00:09:04] It can emerge organically, but you still need someone and that someone doesn't have to be a person. It can be a team. It can be a group of people. Someone at the steering wheel that even at times gives the yes, the reassurance, the cheering, the okay for those that emergence to happen. Um, if there's something that I learned from the butter communities that it is, it pays off to go into the building process.
[00:09:32] Yes. With your community, with a bit of clarity, with a bit of vision, with a bit of direction. Um, cause otherwise there's so many things that can emerge in that space. And so what's the, what's the criteria to decide which one we say yes to and which one we don't. Which one are for now, which ones are for later.
[00:09:54] Um, so, I think you, you need some sort of, someone to steer the community, and especially at the beginning. Um, if I look back, even at L& D Shakers, we were still like a small group of people. We were steering it quite Quite a lot because a that's how we're used to working We are used to steer stuff and manage and delegate and that's what we've been told and that's what we've seen in school And that's how we're evaluated at work.
[00:10:31] And that's we're good performers if we can do that And so that's that that's the that's that's what we knew. That's what I knew. That's the only way I knew how to lead So that's what I did and it wasn't bad Because I knew to read the room and I knew when to adjust and when I didn't knew people came to me and told me, Hey, that doesn't really fit with what we're building here.
[00:10:57] Uh, so I, I learned, I learned together with them. But as you build that space. It's really an unknown. You don't know, you don't know what you're building. At least I didn't knew when I set out to build that initiative. It was never meant to be what it is today. It was an iterative process and it was just someone saying yes to everything that was coming our way.
[00:11:18] Oh, that's a great one. Oh yes, let's do that. Let's like, everything was a bunch of yeses and explorations, but that was not the plan from the beginning. And Because that space is new and you don't really know where you're going, it's very hard for people to, not many of us can take that initiative and be like, this is an empty plate, a clean slate, an empty sheet of paper, and I'm going to draw on it whatever I want to.
[00:11:44] Some people are like, what are others drawing? What can we draw here? Like, do we use colors? Is it watercolors? Do we mix them? Like, what's happening here? At the beginning, when you build that space, It doesn't have to be a person, ideally it's a group of people, but you need someone to set the tone, set the example, what is allowed, how much can we stretch, what is safe, what is not safe, what is frowned upon, what's accepted, cheered, etc.
[00:12:14] Just to set the example of, uh, I guess that links very well with any type of culture design within companies as well. So that was a long answer to
[00:12:25] your
[00:12:25] Shani: question. I love that. And it made me think, I studied a bit around creativity quite a few years back. And it's also one of those topics that you kind of imagine would benefit from complete freedom and just organic growth.
[00:12:45] And I think my conclusion that I was left with was There need to be frameworks for it and pillars of some kind, big, not like small and constraining, but frameworks that give direction to the energy and the efforts. I think that's what I associated when you said this is a lot of this. energy that we have, whether it's creative, whether it's relationship building, whether it's related to learning, when we just leave it to go everywhere, it goes nowhere.
[00:13:20] It just evaporates a little. So I can really understand. On a conceptual level, kind of this need for frameworks, and I think we were so like we're so often we get stuck in this like binary that frameworks need to be constraining. They don't need to be. Frameworks can be, really beautiful and directional.
[00:13:45] I like the analogy also of like a river bank to a river. It's like, it's just something that it's a guardrail for you to, to give more power to whatever you're creating. In this case, a community.
[00:14:01] When you did start to create this, these frameworks or this, um, kind of set of yeses and noes, what did you focus on?
[00:14:14] What did you like exclude or include and maybe what do you see across also? Because you also mentioned here, you're building, you've built a community of practice, which 4, 000 active members. active community, and then a community of affiliation, which is related to a specific product, which is a different type of community.
[00:14:34] Do you see any commonalities there in terms of like what is needed to build that frame?
[00:14:41] Anamaria: Yes, there, there are common things and there are things that are different. And to your first question, what How do you take the decision, what is yes or no, it that's always informed for me, at least in my experience, it was the first thing that informs that is the purpose of the community.
[00:15:00] Whenever you start something new, there has to be a clear why that might change slightly, uh, over the years or as the community advances, evolves, grows, I don't know, or it might boil down into smaller bits and pieces for parts of the community. There has to be this overarching why, um, that informs the people you're inviting in and then again the type of activities, frameworks, what do you say yes to, no to, why is this community different, what makes us special, compared to all the other communities out there.
[00:15:35] And for L& D shakers, that's very broad because there, there is no, we don't look at data because it doesn't, it's not affiliated to something. It doesn't belong to anyone. It's not right. It's not a thing. So what matters, the things that we're looking at towards yes or no, is it relevant to L& D? people.
[00:15:58] Is this valuable, relevant, timely information that we need to get better at our work? And everything that has to do with experiments, trying things out, doing stuff that we haven't done before, gets a yes. If you come up with a new idea of something, you have the yes, if you want to pull a team to help you bring that to life, you do a call to action, you gather the team, you run the project.
[00:16:26] So that was another framework that we use here was distribution of control, responsibility, tasks among what we call a core team, which is now over 40 people. So everything that happens in the community. Everyone gets a piece of that project. If there is no single, like we rarely have people wishing for projects and putting it to someone and saying, I wish for this thing, would you mind doing it?
[00:16:53] Cause the moment someone comes with an idea is who's going to do this. Do you want to drive this? And if you don't want to drive, we take this good idea, and again, call to action, we put it in front of the community, and if someone wants to pick it up, they can run with it. And so, that was this distribution, just trusting people.
[00:17:12] Trusting people, allowing them to make this space their own, allowing them to run their own projects, be the face of the community. Take ownership for that and just, just run with it. And that's that for me, that was an immense growth opportunity, both as a person, as, and as a professional, and I love to see others.
[00:17:32] stepping into that role and creating the same experience, growth experience for themselves. Whereas with the butter community, we have a very clear purpose. So when I joined the team, the team knew exactly why do we need a community? What should the community be able to do? Why are we doing this and why do we need you?
[00:17:51] Um, and so again, that was this purpose and that is the container because it's a community associated to a brand. And the product we constantly have and we switch between these two hats. What's in it for the member? What's in it for the business? And these have to overlap seamlessly. And that's the most important framework that we have.
[00:18:16] And a lot of our yeses and nos is, is this something that adds value to the members? Yes, is this something that adds value to the business? Yes, let's go ahead with it. And if, if it adds value to the business and it doesn't add value to the community, we drop it. And that's not a community thing. That might be growth, marketing, whatever, something else.
[00:18:39] If it's not about the members and it doesn't add value to them, that's not community. No matter how important it is for the business and on the other way around, if we see something that's valuable for the members and not valuable to the business, we sometimes run with some of those projects because not everything that happens in a community can impact the business straight away, but they will impact it later on because they contribute to connectedness, cohesiveness.
[00:19:06] Cohesiveness, anyway, cohesion, and, um, and so it might be not a direct link to something like business y, but it's definitely contributing to the health of the community. So, so that's kind of the biggest framework. And if I were to overlap this to my preferred way of building community, and it is my preferred way because I believe that it works, is to collaborate, co create, co design, human centered.
[00:19:38] Community, by definition, it's about The, the masses about us as a, as a collective, uh, and so I do not believe in this iron hand steering it. Um, and there are communities that are managed like that. They're not the type of communities that I believe have the potential to bring the most value and impact into the world.
[00:20:04] Um, so can this be co created? Can we invite people human centered let's research, let's Let's launch something, let's ask for feedback, let's iterate, let's distribute control, give people space, trust them that they can manage and they can do stuff, support, and that's, those are all principles, if you like, that I bring into my, into my work.
[00:20:28] Shani: I love that. It resonates a lot with. Many other discussions I have from lots of, of different angles, but I would, I would love to dive into that a little bit more with you because as you say, there are many different kinds of communities and a lot of communities that aren't really a community that are just a collection of people with a, with a headline on them.
[00:20:48] Um, so I'm also curious to go a little bit deeper with you. Having. And being the leader of big successful communities, what, what are the capabilities you think we need to really be able to succeed because you talked about your learning experience with this, and that you had to change maybe some, some of your outlook, and that you discovered this also through different channels.
[00:21:10] So, um, How is that maybe different from other spaces that we're used to? I have so
[00:21:20] Anamaria: many threads to pull here. I'm just going to pull one and then... Pull the
[00:21:23] Shani: first one. We see what happens. Pull the first one.
[00:21:28] Anamaria: Capabilities. So, one is the what are the capabilities? And the second part of your question is... What did I learn or how, how I transform the type of capabilities that I build.
[00:21:40] And for me, it was, it's, um, so I guess I, something that I had and has helped me. And I think it's, it's a great, I don't know, necessarily it's more of a mindset. way of being or operating rather than, and, and, and I think it can be learned and practiced. Second muscle is this, uh, just creativity, creativity, or rather said more like curiosity and creativity in the approach and maybe curiosity Paired with courage, boldness, just like the, the ability to go out and ask and look into different places.
[00:22:29] I constantly had this, after I started it, I constantly had this, That was in the back of my mind, like that was the first space and the first thing that, and even now if I read an article, if I see something, if I have an experience, my, my immediate reaction is to how can I apply that to community? How, what can we bring that?
[00:22:49] So that's this, it's good to be curious and not to be bold enough to experiment and, and, and throw yourself at it, knowing that it's okay if, It doesn't work out exactly as you plan it because you can iterate at the end of the day with community. That's why we live in this co creation, et cetera. We built for people and what I like and what I need might not be what you like and need right now.
[00:23:14] So in order to make sure that we reach the majority of us and we create things that are impactful for the majority of us, we have to put our brains together to see different facets. And I'm going to link this to the thing that I learned most and it was a very slap in the face for me.
[00:23:31] It was in the way, let's call it leadership style, the way you show up. And maybe we associate leadership erroneously with a position of superiority, hierarchy, a position of power, etc. I used to work as a manager and that was, that, that was leadership for me. It was a hierarchy. You are on top, you need to manage, you need to delegate, you need to do this, and then you are responsible for that outcome.
[00:23:55] So you need to be there like a hawk and make sure that that outcome is being done properly. And properly is probably for me. And with community, I learned that there are many properties. Like my properly and my way of doing things is different than yours, but not, it doesn't mean that mine is better than yours.
[00:24:16] So one thing that I had to learn is this letting go and trusting others to go their own path, their own process, and trusting them that they are capable. and able to find answers and to put their brains together and to deliver onto something equally as if not better than I can. And at the beginning, I was all into, Oh, let's distribute.
[00:24:44] And also kind of, I'm like, everything we're doing is voluntary work. So you had to really, if you wanted to do more, you needed more hands and brain. So I was like, okay, let's distribute, let's share. Uh, the task, et cetera. And then I was going like that, like that manager on top. So how is it going? How does that look like?
[00:25:03] Oh, maybe this should be like maybe blue. And maybe this should be like to the left. And have you thought about that? And that, and someone stopped me in one of those chats and he was like, you told me that I lead this project. This is my way of leading this project. It might not be your way of leading this project, but this is my way.
[00:25:24] I accept the feedback. If this is a feedback that, you know, I'll think about it. And if this makes sense, I'd be happy to implement it, but I feel that you're, you're still wanting to drive this thing and infuse your view and your way of doing things. Into my role and I can't do that either. It's mine and then you have to trust me or it's yours and then what am I doing here?
[00:25:49] Yeah, and that was I'm so grateful for that. I was shocked I admit like it was brought to me exactly like this in a chat and I was Pocky! Immediately, like, bucket of cold water under the hat. Immediate wake up call. And I said, You can't go around talking about co creation and collaboration if you do not allow that space and you do not trust people.
[00:26:21] You need to let go. And... That was the biggest thing that I learned in, in building and at Butter, I go with the same principle. Again, we have a core team. That's kind of like my modus operandi, if you want. We have a core team. They all get their space to contribute. I listen to their ideas, their thoughts.
[00:26:45] They are driving that project. And if they need me, I am there. I'm somewhere in the backseat. I can give suggestions just like I would give you suggestions for your business. I'm like, by the way, I have an idea for Wonder. And then, and then it's exactly the same. It's like, it's not mine. It's yours. That's my idea.
[00:27:05] That's my suggestion. It's up to you. What do you want to do with it? It's a different type of. leading and it's so empowering. I have to say, I like to be led like that. If I look back, the managers that led me like that was the role where I most strived and nevertheless, I wasn't enabling that for my teams.
[00:27:30] Shani: But it's easy to fall into that default because the paradigm and the structures that we're most often in and we get used to are, are that I even was reading a book on. on self led organizations. And it, it flagged me just even the word empowerment that you used and how that is even, even just that word is kind of showing that it means you have power to give away.
[00:27:54] And what would it look like if you talk about just you know, enabling agency or, uh, talking about something different. That is a more as you were onto before a more distributed way, but still like I'm listening to you got goosebumps. I was like, yes, I can relate to, to that lesson. And I can relate to that dynamic that happens from, from both sides of, of the equation of having been.
[00:28:23] led in that way and having, you know, fallen into also leading in that way that isn't at all, uh, productive. I learned a really good question from somebody a while back, uh, he said, yeah, you should always ask yourself, am I making it different or am I making it better? And that's really good, because I think sometimes we just go for our preference from a leadership point of view, as you were saying, but I would like it to be this way.
[00:28:51] Yeah, but you know, there are so many ways to create a good solution. And maybe it won't come out as you would have done it, but it'll still come out equally well. So I know, I also used to ask people if they came to me, said, Yeah, can you come and said, Yeah, how can I add value? Thank you. Not how can I tell you what to do?
[00:29:12] How can I add value? If I can, and if not, cool, go do your thing. Go find somebody else to add value to your whatever it is that you're doing. Hmm. Yeah, so there I think there are also like lots of powerful questions that Uh, you can use as a little checkpoints in those moments because it's easy to fall into patterns there.
[00:29:33] Yes.
[00:29:35] Anamaria: And let me tell you what one other thing that I know that I, not that I know this, that happened that surprised me. And this was, we just talked about the perspective of whatever the leader, the initiator, and the lesson that I learned for myself. But I also went back and Some people have a hard time with that space and that that responsibility Some people straight came to me and said I need you to tell me what to do hmm,
[00:30:13] and then I said I don't want to because I That's your project. Like I don't have the I manage my own projects this is your project and then you can do whatever and and Some people don't know what to do with this, whatever, and maybe coming back to those frameworks, right, maybe that the role is then stepping into this coaching, coaches shoes, with the right questions, helping them a bit make sense or prepare, sketch a direction or a vision for themselves, that, that, that should anchor them.
[00:30:49] Because for me, I thought, you know, Oh, I go from micromanaging to full freedom, do whatever, and then, and then have fun with it. And some people thrive there. If you tell them, do whatever, they're like, whoa, thanks. See ya, see ya later. And others are like, I, I, I don't know. I want you to tell me what to do, and I will happily do it.
[00:31:08] But I can't seem to start. From nothing. Uh, and that was also a lesson. Because I'm a self starter. I thrive in empty sheets of paper and projects from scratch. I'm like, yes, please, more of that. And I forget that not everyone likes that. Not everyone likes that. Some people downright, they're like, I just want to follow a checklist.
[00:31:39] I just want to follow the steps. I don't want to have to think what the steps are. Yeah. Maybe they don't know how to. No, I,
[00:31:47] Shani: it's a, it's a mix, right? Because some of it is what we got used to and how much we trust ourselves and how much we trust the environment that we're in. And some of it is, as you say, what you thrive on as a person.
[00:32:00] Uh, I remember nine years ago and I was getting married to my husband and we, You know, I'm from Sweden and Israel and from very, very like secular background, nobody had any expectations of what it should look like, where it should be, what should be included, if there should be this type of ceremony, that type of ceremony.
[00:32:25] And I still remember and I'm much like you, you know, I love a celeb. I love the self starting and the freedom and all that. I still remember having had a period of time in that where I was like, what am I going to do? The choice is overwhelming until, and that's funny because then it makes me think, I think for those of us who are more self starters, I think what we do is we create our framework quite quickly and then we act within that.
[00:32:54] We don't just, you know, Necessarily go off and do everything everywhere. And some people like to have that framework created within the space of work or community or something that it's already purpose set up. But I remember still that feeling of total overwhelm. What am I going to do with all this freedom?
[00:33:16] There are too many things for me to consider. There are too many choices. And I actually I love the word that you use anchor because I remember I was looking for anchor points like a tradition or something that I could pick up and personalize or do something with. So, um, yeah, it can be really different, but then all the more power to what we were talking about the beginning of setting some kind of framework that just.
[00:33:46] It just gives people a little bit of, um, direction on where to act.
[00:33:53] Anamaria: The, the good part, the good thing about communities is that you can always fall back on to other people. Always. So, you know, I'd be, okay, it's a blank slate, it's, I don't know what to do, I don't have a framework, I need that, I don't know how to create it, I'm overwhelmed, what do I do, where do I go next?
[00:34:15] And my default ever since I started, actually even before that. It's just, I always had colleagues, I always had people around me that were kind of, we thought that we pulled at the same string. And I probably only ended up working and caring about communities because I felt that I was alone in that role.
[00:34:33] And I had to kind of outsource a team, which then happened to grow in a community. But probably if I, if I would have had a team, I would have never gone that path of gathering people, for example, like random strangers. And, uh, and that's because I think the, like the very first thing, like my instinct when I don't know something and I feel overwhelmed and lost is to be like, there has to be someone out there that has thought about this, gone through this before.
[00:35:02] At least one person to bounce off ideas and it helps me tremendously to jump on a call with someone, even if it's just one person. Imagine it's a group of three or four or five, like the ideas are booming and somehow everything falls always into place. But even that one person, that one call, a question that they ask, like that sense making collectively, it always helped me build that framework.
[00:35:27] So I would say when in doubt, knock on someone's door. Invite them into your overwhelm, your questions, your not knowing. And then figure it out together. And with communities, that's very easy. Cause they, cause they, cause they're there and they've seen the word and everyone's very willing and open to share and contribute, and they're very happy when you ask for help, they're happy to, to give that help.
[00:35:50] Um, and so it's just very easy to, I, I constantly, you don't know how to do, just raise a hand, ask someone, get together, build it together. Um,
[00:36:01] Shani: And actually, that just brings me to a question. I think maybe we make a lot of assumptions around this, but I would love to hear your take on why do we crave community so much?
[00:36:15] What, what are and I mean, with with awareness, there could be a lot of different reasons.
[00:36:23] Anamaria: I don't, I don't know. Like the ques the answer to that question, quite honest and frankly, I do not know, but I know why I craved it. Mmm. And there's, there's this little story, cause I, I realized that I just said I would have probably never gone that path if I had a call, a group of colleagues. But actually, actually, not a lot of people know this.
[00:36:47] Shani: Soon, more people will know it. Soon, more people will
[00:36:50] Anamaria: know, yes. Story time. Before L& D Shade, the same year, 2019, me, Sain, working in L& D, recently moved from Barcelona to Amsterdam, I started a meetup group. And I started a meetup group, I don't remember how it was called, it was a cool name. It was uh, the purpose of that group, I was feeling the need, like just a hunger to learn and get inspired.
[00:37:26] My previous role, just to set the scene, was
[00:37:31] occupied my life. Long days, travel, it was all about work for six years. The moment I moved to Amsterdam and I made the switch to a nine to six job and suddenly the evenings were for me and the weekends and wow, books, courses. All of the things I started doing all of the things I entered in the sponge mode and I said I really want to learn More I want to talk about creativity with folks.
[00:37:59] I want to talk about innovation. What is this? What is innovation? Like what is this thing? But I bet it's interesting so then I created that meetup and the purpose was to gather folks to just Talk about innovation and creativity in Amsterdam. That was before R& D Shakers. And I only hosted one session with them and it was.
[00:38:24] I don't know, 10, 10 methods to brainstorm or ideate, ideate or something like that. And 10 people came and they were all strangers and my friend next to me because I said, you need to come. If no one joins, at least I have someone to like have a beer with and kind of like cry on your shoulder because what a failure and whatnot.
[00:38:42] And then 10 strangers. came to the meetup and we had an amazing time. Amazing. And then he switched into like learning and adding shakers and so on. So it's, it's, um,
[00:38:59] and then the need was different. So one for me was either this, I don't know something. I don't know a field. I'm curious. I feel this pull towards something. Where are the people that know what this is so I can learn from them? The second part were, where are the people that are doing the same work as I do?
[00:39:18] Because I need to. I need to get feedback from someone that knows, understands my work. I need to get feedback from someone that's five step ahead. And other times, like there are all sorts of community, as you well said, it could be, I, I suffer the loss. It's a big grief in my life. And no one around my friends can empathize with that because they haven't suffered the same loss.
[00:39:42] So I want to talk to people that I don't have to put a lot of words. into a sentence for them to know what I feel inside. There's different reasons. Accountability. And I don't know if it's, I actually, and I, I never put this into words, but I think that any type of need that we might have Has the potential to lead to a community as a as a solution or as a result.
[00:40:10] I don't know now on the spot when you ask. No one asked me this question. I haven't thought about it, but I'm thinking, is there any need that we have there that could not be met by a group of people coming together around that same need and goal and purpose? I don't know if someone knows Reach out to us and let us know, please let us
[00:40:32] Shani: know that I think that sounds very likely like, I mean, I've been in communities of exercise.
[00:40:39] I've been in communities of motherhood and communities of different kind across the years. It's, as you say, it's something about sharing a common understanding or a common experience or a common challenge and, and being able to, to move through it together, um, with somebody who can empathize and recognize where you are at and that you don't feel so alone in it.
[00:41:09] Thanks. Bye. Yeah,
[00:41:12] Anamaria: you're working on some like, like, I can't really, this question is going to haunt me now. It's going to haunt you. What is it? Like, let me, let me make a list,
[00:41:20] Shani: you know? In my family, we call it a take away question. Well, we don't really know, like we say, I'm going to take it, take away and then you get to go and think about it and come back.
[00:41:35] I like that. Come back when you're, when you're feeling ready or when you're not, when you need a community to discuss it. There we go, let's explore this
[00:41:43] Anamaria: question in the community.
[00:41:46] Shani: You never know. Um, I have, I also learned this concept this year and I thought, uh, it was really interesting. We were speaking to, um, uh, a man in Finland called Mika and he runs a company called Ghost.
[00:42:00] And, um, he said. And this was really interesting. It said community is an outcome. It's not just because you put 10 people in a room that that makes a community. It's the outcome of them actually doing something together. And I don't know if I'm doing him justice by this, by this explanation.
[00:42:22] It's just me paraphrasing. Um, but yeah, I'm wondering you have, you know, been really swimming in community. How does this resonate with you?
[00:42:33] Anamaria: So, can I just say that when we first had a chat a while back, you mentioned this, and that was my takeaway. It wasn't a question, it was my takeaway, my pondering, reflection, because the chat was amazing, but that stuck with me for a long time after we talked.
[00:42:52] Yeah. I remember, I took notes, I put it down, I thought about it, um, and when I heard it, it almost felt like this, Gosh, this is, I never thought about it. I haven't put it into, into the same words or in, in that I haven't made sense of it like that. But when I listened to it first, it's like, that's, that's it.
[00:43:20] Yeah, that is it. you don't start with community. And by, by definition of it, community is a result of the right conditions. Bringing people together, all of those building blocks that we talk, building people together, a purpose, a commonality, make sense, bring them in, co create, collaborate, what is the space.
[00:43:42] What are we doing here? What is the value? What do we take out? And so on. By the end of it, you have the community that kind of then self, you know, like grows and, and has starts to have a life of its own. My brain made a link to, um, to a post that I saw yesterday from David Spinks and I shared it on my profile.
[00:44:07] Brilliant. 10 lessons, I think 10 lessons that he learned or 10, like takeaways from his amazing work with communities. And one of them was. People will not join your community for connection. They will join your community for a concrete need that they have. So they want to learn, they want to network, they have that intrinsic motivation.
[00:44:28] It's almost never connection, ergo community. They will join because they They feel that space can offer them something that they need. And as they go in there to get that tool, to get that connection, to get the, to, to get that, um, that network, to get that event, whatever, best practice, whatever it is that they're looking for.
[00:44:50] As they engage with the community, meet the people, the members, the vibe and so on, talk to, attend events and so on, connections are forming. And then and then they stay for that connection. They stay for the fact that all this feels familiar. This feels like home. This is my tribe. I can turn to these people.
[00:45:09] I could show them who I am. Good, bad questions, challenges, wins and so on. So I think it fits very well with what you just said. Communities that is the result. It's not a means to build something. That's the gold. That's the result of Of what? Of, something, of, of a mix of, of things we have to put
[00:45:30] Shani: there.
[00:45:31] Yeah. The, the right context, the right experiences that we were sharing together, the actual living of, of solving the things together and moving in a certain direction together. Yeah. I think it, for me, it's the same principle. It's, I've worked a lot with culture and I view culture a lot as the same. It's also a result.
[00:45:54] It's not, I feel like sometimes we talk about that and it's like a ghost. It's this thing that exists on its own without connection to anything else. No, it's just, here's what you put in. The culture is just the outcome of this and I guess it's the same here. I think we're, but then we often label communities as just any group of people.
[00:46:19] Any collective of humans. Uh, and then we don't put in this effort to actually. turn it into a community.
[00:46:28] Anamaria: It's so misunderstood. So misunderstood, this word. I think that four years ago, when we started, it had, it had a different meaning. And you might argue that communities are going out through their glory period, and they're so important.
[00:46:43] And I'm happy to hear people talk about, there's communities all over the place, but so often something else it's labeled as a community. Like just the other day, I saw an interesting post on LinkedIn, join this community of something, something. And at the end, it was a newsletter. You were signing up for a newsletter, but no opportunity to talk back, no opportunity to meet someone to, there was no direct, no communication like with anyone else, except with the person sending the newsletter, which you could, like, if you wanted to reply to and be like, Hey, should we grab a cup?
[00:47:16] So I thought like, wow. It got me so excited that this is a community. I expect, I don't know, a space, a Slack chat or something, like, you know, a space where I could talk to people interested in that topic. Um, it was a newsletter sign up package as a community and it's, it's, yeah, it's misunderstood and it's a shame because it's very complex, lots of facets, lots of, uh, it's very hard for me.
[00:47:43] I'm still learning. I still, I still don't know things. I still read, I still, it's a never ending exploration. Um.
[00:47:54] Shani: I can feel your pain on the fact that we dilute so many words, like community then loses its meaning when everyone kind of markets it as something else. But then when you were saying this, it also made me think that everything goes through different phases.
[00:48:12] And it's never, nothing's ever static, even, even a community, which is why it just made me loop back to the, to the very beginning where you were talking about exploration and saying yes, and leaning in and just making it possible to have some kind of evolution, because if you don't, then. Then at some point, everything just dulls down and, and dies, basically.
[00:48:39] Anamaria: I don't remember now. I don't like to mention stuff who's, that I cannot attribute. But it fits so well with what you just said, and I'm like, I don't remember who wrote that article. I don't remember. And was this, kind of the, the life cycle, right?
[00:48:54] And, and, and I remember reading it, and the last stage was, was... Like dying like you close the community and I remember reading it. I think like what do you mean? What do you mean the community dies like cease to exist or like it stops or whatever?
[00:49:15] I haven't wrapped my head around that. Mm hmm. I think that on a personal level. Yes As a member, you have that, you have that, like, you discover, you're excited, you contribute, and then life changes, you take what you need, and that space stops to serve you. As a community, though, I think you can reinvent yourself.
[00:49:35] It's not just like you said, listen back, get feedback, co create, take it into something else, new direction as, as, as we evolve, and what value do we want to take out of it? Like, continue to develop that. space. And then I was left with this big question, when does the community die as a, as a, as a whole? You know, when do you, when do you close the door and, and, and do you ever, or like, I don't know.
[00:50:05] Shani: Yeah. I mean, I, I definitely don't know. I just, and maybe it's not like a yes or no, uh, firm, I'm, I'm thinking. In, in Susan Whelan's, like, team theory, I know there's also, there are four steps, but there's actually a fifth, which is when the, when the team kind of decomposes in a way, but in a structured way.
[00:50:31] Uh, and that's not always what happens. Sometimes the team keeps evolving and, you know, people move out, people move in, and then there are different kind of tells us to whether, okay, no, actually now we're starting. starting over from the beginning. But then it's also like, well, there is starting over even in the same structure.
[00:50:52] I feel like in even just with ourselves and the self development, I start over with myself a lot. Oh, okay. Every day, like,
[00:51:00] Anamaria: hello! New you, new me, new you, new me.
[00:51:04] Shani: Yeah, but I mean, sometimes it can feel like that you're exploring, as you're saying, like, you're in this learning space, and you're exploring this new thing that you don't really know how to handle, and you kind of feel like you go, okay, I have to...
[00:51:15] remove some stuff, pick this apart, make some space for something new. Um, so yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's maybe it's just, uh, recognizing, as you say, because I like what you said about reinvention, that there is, there is reinvention, and that actually there is a little bit of death in there. Like, some things will fall off and not keep going for the next one.
[00:51:42] And I think, actually, I think that's sometimes when we get a little bit scared. And we kind of pull back and we go, Oh, okay, let's just leave it then or like, either we just leave it. To kind of sizzle out, or we don't really know what to do with it. Uh, because, yeah, that's a bit uncomfortable, that moment when you go, okay, let's look at this.
[00:52:06] Anamaria: It is. It's even uncomfortable to leave aside project things you've tried and probably worked at the beginning, they're not working now anymore. Or maybe, maybe they never worked, but you just were like very stubborn to give them some air time and that kind of poop, make it work. And even there, I noticed like, it's an art to know when to close something, no matter how big or small, including community, I guess.
[00:52:34] Yeah. It's an art and, um, I'm so, I'm so attached to you.
[00:52:43] Just to witness two, two other people in my network that both closed the community chapter in their life in very different ways. And even saying this and kind of going back, like remembering, I remember I went back like, what do you mean you're leaving? Like you're leaving your community behind, like how can you, yeah, like, what is this?
[00:53:08] How do you feel? What does it feel like? When do you know it's time? Like so clearly these questions only kind of come to reinforce that I'm, I'm not, I'm not there. But I, I've seen it happen. So I know that just like with everything else. you're leaving things behind and you're reinventing and you're moving forward personally, professionally, and so on.
[00:53:31] And, and, and yeah, I don't want to think about it, but let's not
[00:53:36] Shani: think about it. Let's not think
[00:53:38] Anamaria: about that. No.
[00:53:41] Shani: I know. I just speaking of like reinvention and different ideas. I started taking a pottery class at the beginning of this year. It's really nice because it's just this creative outlet that isn't intellectual and abstract and huge is something you can touch with your hands.
[00:53:57] But obviously, you know, it's, it's not a craft that you master straight away. And, um, And I know I've tried like throwing or turning a lot on this on the plate. And you end up with a lot of dough or clay that you can't do anything with. And we had a joke there where we're like, okay, I put it in my fuck up bag.
[00:54:22] And the bag just kept growing, like the plates that never became a plate. But then the beautiful thing happened that I got to like, six weeks in and I was like, Oh, there's Fair amount of clay in here. Let me make something else. I made something else out of it. And it turned out really nice. And I think also, we sometimes discount that in, um, like leaving things or like dropping them off that there's so much to repurpose in our thoughts.
[00:54:52] And actually, you were mentioning to me just before we started recording this app called Napkin, where you can kind of drop your thoughts. And for me, actually, that principle of the clay was a little bit the same is
[00:55:03] that, um,
[00:55:07] I think we also struggle to like say goodbye to these things or leave a community or leave something because we think it's the very end.
[00:55:14] But actually, we still brought a lot of things with us, a lot of learnings, a lot of cool things that we can repurpose maybe into a new community, maybe into another type of context that's going to mean something. So yeah, immediately when you said I thought about my bag of clay. Of clay. That's, uh, yeah, was painful in the moment, for sure, because you're sitting there and you're trying and then it just goes, you know, it just turns out as a, as a smashed tomato.
[00:55:46] But... Applies to
[00:55:47] Anamaria: jobs, to roles as well, to jobs, right? When we... Like we switch careers, we switch jobs all the time and when you look back, what do you, what do you remember? Yeah. Like, I, I, I remember the, the things I've learned and the things that I now know how to do to, to perfect for further or use in whatever it is I'm doing now.
[00:56:09] Yeah. Um, so it's interesting. I like this idea of, uh, that, if a door closes, it doesn't mean that whatever it's inside that room, it goes. Remains stuck there and dusted and no one can reach in and, and use those things, whatever it is you're, you're leaving behind. But actually, Sarah, you're closing a door, but it's just a door.
[00:56:31] There's no room and there's nothing inside
[00:56:33] Shani: because you're taking everything. You're taking everything with you. That's it. It's just a door. But actually, if, if we just bring it down to the individual, anyone being in a community. Isn't that the like, best wish for anyone coming to an end with their journey in a community is that they actually come away with their bag full of learning, great experiences, having felt supported, having, you know, had their expansion, having had a sense of belonging, you know, whatever is the purpose of the community, um, is for me, then like coming back to the very first thing we talked about, is it, did it serve me with this?
[00:57:13] Thanks. And yeah, and then maybe what we need is something else, which kind of leads me to then like for us to find a little way to like wrap up some core actions. I think I want to divide it into two. Um, one is what we like actions we can do to start building community. Around us. And you talked a little bit about just the bravery of getting people together.
[00:57:42] But the second I think is also that we talked about the mindset and capability or the muscle that we practice to actually be able to read. Both contribute and benefit from community. So yeah, I don't know which one you want to start with, but I would love to hear your take on like an action or two that you think are useful for each.
[00:58:03] Anamaria: I can start with the first one because I get this question a lot. I started two communities, I started them very differently. Um, so I always look first at what type of community you're building, what do you want to put it, put, put out there, but what I, regardless of context and who you are, what do you want to build?
[00:58:24] And from where I'm standing, it's the thing that helped me get like down this path was the fact that I didn't sit down to have a big vision or a strategy for something
[00:58:42] but if you're starting a community, if I would have been able to foresee or plan everything that this community is today, I would have never started. I would have been like, me, I can never do that. And so, there was a blessing in this not knowing what you're building. And, not everyone has that blessing.
[00:59:10] But, I always say, start small. And people are like, I need a platform, a strategy, I need a stellar room. Where it's like, no, what you need is five people in a room. That's all you need. Five people, have a one sentence why. And that one sentence, why, has to be so relevant to you. You need to be personally invested, curious, interested in whatever it is that why is.
[00:59:43] That's why I'm sometimes thinking, would I be able to lead, build, create a community into a topic that I'm not interested in? And I think the answer for myself is no. You, you put up, you put a lot of yourself into a community. A lot of it. So the fact that I was interested in learning, I'm interested, personally interested in facilitation, for example, in the case of butter and how do I hone that skill.
[01:00:13] That's a tremendous help. So one that, why the one sentence, why personally relevant to you? Why are you building this? Pitch that to folks around you that you believe might be interested in the same. Um, some will say yes, others will say no. The ones that are saying yes, don't bother with
[01:00:39] strategies and what types of events. And I was like, I don't know, let's just have lunch and meet, like talk to each other. That's how LND Shaker started with a lunch with five people, strangers that were working in LND in Amsterdam. When we got together, we said, so what challenges do you have? And how does your work look like and how's your manager and your budget and your projects?
[01:01:01] So what, how can we help? What would you need from this, from this monthly gathering that we're doing? Okay. So then how, how do we organize these things? Like when we meet, what should happen there? All of that, it was like, no one said before to be like, huh, strategic.
[01:01:15] I need to. And so just start and people will tell you what to do and you will for sure build something that people need and they will be engaged in. So you will never have to worry about engagement. ever. If you sit in your corner with your sheet of paper and you try to invent and think what people might like, they might dislike that and they will not engage.
[01:01:35] So then, then you have that issue on your hands. So to recap, to start a clear why one sentence speech, gather people in the room and start building from there. And the third one I would add there, which I didn't, I haven't put into words until recently, probably two to three years into this community building journey, I was very guided about my own curiosity and that was luck because I really loved the topic and I guess that was the lucky part because I was surrounded by people that were interested in the same thing.
[01:02:07] If I were to look back, all we did was focus on value, value, value, value, value, value. What should happen in the space for you to come back to it? Yeah. Pain solutions. How is, how is the space helpful? Um, so those are the three things. And then In terms of the skills, I think they fit very well in here. Uh, I don't know if I should call it research.
[01:02:36] Just like, listen, be open, be open to listen to what people are truly saying. I always had my motivations as to why I want to be part of that community. That was my personal, that's why I started. I was like, my motivation here is to learn from you. And then I suddenly, like, I, I, very soon after I realized that not everyone, everyone's motivation in the room was the same to join.
[01:03:01] Some people were motivated by other things, and so I think it's this, everything that has to do with a human centered approach and the skills that belong into that journey, like your researcher had. Chatting with people, asking things, constantly, constantly ask for feedback, and it doesn't have to come in the form.
[01:03:22] form of a super serious survey, just talk to people, keep your ear out, have coffee chats, ask around, et cetera. And, and, and adapt to that and just have fun. It was a blessing for me. That was like, I re when I realized that I can do in that, in the community, whatever I want to, because there's no manager, no strategy, no budgets, no agenda.
[01:03:49] Like there's no one stopping you. For me, that was very powerful. Very. And I took advantage of that new bad idea. I launch stuff in projects and never done before. Yes. Have no clue how to do it, please. Like zero risk to learn and experiment, but, but you need to build that muscle, that muscle off.
[01:04:15] Am I confident or am I not comfortable with the world? Am I comfortable to put something into the world that is not perfect according to my... And I was just having a conversation this morning with someone from L&D Shakers, and we were talking about that. It's like, I like to experiment, and then I have to be comfortable with shipping things that are not perfect.
[01:04:35] Yeah. So then, when do you know where to ship, and what's the boundary in between, okay, it's not perfect, but it's good enough, and poor quality? Mm. Because constantly we say, oh, is this poor quality, or is this... And, and, and we both agree that the needle goes to, is this serving the purpose? Mm. Why were these I need for?
[01:04:56] Yes. Can it be improved, made prettier, more efficient, faster, whatever, with better tools? It can. But if we launch it like this, in this state, does it serve the purpose? Will it do what we want it to do? What, why we create it? Yes, it will. Put it out there and go for it.
[01:05:19] And a lot of other things that I might add there. But this, this, this would be the, uh, talk to people, bring people in, be curious, experiment, throw yourself at, just have fun. Don't take yourself too serious. Very often. It's like even, even the butter community is like, don't take yourself too serious. Like, let's just, let's just run with us.
[01:05:40] Just explore, throw yourself at it. Just like have fun. Too much script, too much strategy, too much. That's just, yeah. Takes all the fun out of, out of the
[01:05:51] Shani: role. And it actually takes all the creativity and creative heights out of it too because we're so afraid that we're going to do something wrong.
[01:06:01] Anamaria: Gosh, this brings me, last, last point, but do you remember when you said that you read a lot about creativity and then you need that container?
[01:06:09] I find it fascinating because You also need to find the fine line in between how, how to build that container to be just the route of the right amount of container and not be too constrictive and not too loose. Because when, when it's too loose, where do I start? But when it's too constrictive, it's. It's encapsulated.
[01:06:35] I can't, yeah. Like, you know, I'm too constricted by the container. Mm. So this is also, and it's similar with community frameworks, the same, how much is planning, how much is emergence? Yeah, it's the same. What is the, that
[01:06:51] Shani: container's, the, and I guess, you know, that comes down to a lot. What, what have you, what you have been saying is that's what you also have to co-create.
[01:07:00] And explore together with the people in the community. That's not something you can do or judge. And I think to your point of like, when do you ship something? And I've also been there so many times. I also usually ask myself, what would make this better? At this point. And sometimes it is actually like, no, actually, I need to put some work for this to make sense for somebody else.
[01:07:24] But as soon as they start going, I need somebody else's opinion on this, then it's time to ship it. Like, that's the point where it needs to interact with somebody else than me. Because we are so good at talking things to death for nine months. And you go, yeah, but already six months ago, you could have shipped it, you could have improved it, it could have been better.
[01:07:45] But instead, you get stuck in these constraining structures. So for me, also like community, or communities of practice or of different needs also definitely serve to like get you unstuck a little.
[01:08:00] Anamaria: And I don't know if I can ask this. Yes. Or this, I saw it, I saw it communicate on LinkedIn, so I was like, tell me more about the House of Wonder.
[01:08:10] What, what is that? , opportunity
[01:08:14] Shani: to pitch in project Opportunity to pitch.
[01:08:20] Anamaria: Hey, it wouldn't it, it would be wrong if you had already everything figured out.
[01:08:25] Shani: But no, uh, I, I think we're working,
[01:08:27] Anamaria: I, I saw there's a bit of a. Like just a, just a whoo,
[01:08:31] Shani: yeah, a little bit of a little bit of a loose thing. And we are exploring this ourselves. Thank you for asking. And, um, yeah, I think we are playing with the framework and When, when it's good to ship.
[01:08:48] Uh, so we are, uh, we, we have a lot of thoughts and, um, yeah, I, I won't share more in this, in this channel.
[01:08:57] Anamaria: Uh, we'll all stay with our eyes peeled on all your communications. But I saw that and I thought, so excited. It's so cool. Yes. Yes, fun
[01:09:09] Shani: with it. It is fun. Yeah, I think that's definitely the goal fun and exploration.
[01:09:18] Which Yeah, I think we could go on for at least another hour. And we also had a nice wrap. So I thank you for exploring and sharing and philosophizing. It was amazing as always. Thank you very much. This was
[01:09:38] Anamaria: great. Thanks for the invitation and thanks for having me.
[01:09:40] Shani: Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Experienced Designers.
[01:09:44] I hope this episode brought you some new insight and some new topics to stop and wonder about. Special thanks to Anamaria for venturing into exploring the life and death of communities. And please come back to us if you have answers to some of the questions we pondered and didn't really land in an answer to.
[01:10:05] Maybe you do. And of course, don't forget to click subscribe and as always, get in touch with any questions or suggestions. That's how better experiences are built.
