Ep. 033– Aga Bajer - Creating human cultures
The experience of work and life have long been treated as two separate experiences, but what happens when we think about work the same way we think about life? With Aga we dive into what corporate cultures look like that make space for us to be human and what is needed for a workplace to send positive ripples into our lives.
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About Aga:
Aga is the founder and CEO of CultureBrained® - a boutique consultancy on a mission to empower purpose-driven leaders to make work synonymous with fun, meaning and belonging. Before establishing CultureBrained®, Aga led consulting teams in companies like Hay Group, Korn Ferry, and PwC.
In the past 20+ years, Aga helped hundreds of clients to attract, hire, develop and retain A+ talent, accelerate personal and business growth, drive impact and create legendary cultures that scale.
Aga is also the founder and host of a one-of-a-kind, global community for Culture Leaders, the CultureBrained Community, where members connect with outstanding peers to discover new ways of cultivating thriving cultures at scale in the brave new world of remote and hybrid work. She is the author of Building and Sustaining a Coaching Culture and the creator and host of one of the most popular podcasts on culture, the CultureLab.
Want to connect with Aga:
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www.agabajer.com
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https://www.agabajer.com/culturebrained-community/
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EP. 033 Transcription
[00:00:15] In this episode, Aga Bajer joins me to talk about how we can make work part of the human experience for real. Aga is the founder and CEO of Culture brained a virtual community of leaders looking for new ways to cultivate amazing and scalable culture.
[00:00:33] But she's also a coach, consultant, author, and host of the Culture Lab podcast. We dive into why fun, meaning, and belonging are essential pillars of a good human experience and what it means to make space for our humanity in the workplace. And we discuss what it takes for people and organizations to bridge the gap between their intended culture and the one they actually create.
[00:00:59] Welcome, aga. I am so happy that you are joining me, uh, to converse and philosophies.
[00:01:10] Aga: I am super happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Really excited to see where this conversation takes us. Um, so looking forward to it.
[00:01:20] Shani: Great. Yes, me too. It's always, it's always a bit of, um, Of a question mark, because it's such a big question that I have, but I still like to just tap into to you or whoever comes here.
[00:01:36] And, one thing that I'm always curious about is what leads people to be where they are and do what they do? And, just kind of looking at your history and the things that you are doing and have done, there's this core word around culture that is a very kind of solid theme. So what is it about culture?
[00:02:03] Aga: Yeah, I mean, I wish I had a very sort of cohesive, um, short, straightforward story of how I got to where I am today, but it's slightly complicated, but I, I'll pull a couple of threads for you. So I think the first thing that made me very curious about other cultures was the fact that I was growing up behind the Iron Curtain in, the Communist Poland.
[00:02:30] And for the folks who listened to this and are not entirely sure what it entails to be growing up, um, behind the Iron Curtain, it's, it's a very isolated situation. So people couldn't travel. It was a very homogenous society where your neighbors looked like you spoke, like you did similar things to you, and I really can't explain that.
[00:02:54] But since I was a little girl, my biggest dream was to travel, which seemed. Almost impossible, um, at that time and to explore the world. So we had movies, we had books. So I knew that there is a world out there to discover. And so I'd climb on a tree in my aunt's garden. It was an apple tree. I still remember that.
[00:03:18] I just still remember the whole feeling. And I would imagine that I was on a ship, I was a pirate girl and I was traveling across the world with these incredible people. Like there was a native Indian and, and people from other countries. And they all had different talents, but predominantly they just behaved differently.
[00:03:37] They were different than me. So I had this, I really. Explain why exactly. Probably because we want what we don't have generally. So I just wanted to explore the world and other cultures so much as a kid. And I, and I did. So it was, um, one of those dreams that came true for me and I feel so incredibly grateful for it.
[00:04:00] And then of course there is this piece around company culture and I think, you know, one of the main reasons why I got really fascinated by company culture was because a friend of mine and I, founded a, an an ice cream factory. It was a ice cream manufacturing, um, company. Really crazy idea. We had no idea about producing ice cream.
[00:04:24] We just liked ice cream. Um, and so, we built that business. And you know, the funny thing is we were 20 something years old. The funny thing is this company still exists. It's one of the biggest ice cream manufacturers in the central Eastern Europe. Um, and so it's a miracle in itself because we had no idea what we were doing, and even more so, we had no idea how to cultivate a great work environment for the people who worked for us.
[00:04:56] And this was, I guess like probably the first time in my life where I understood that there is this huge gap between your intentions and how you think about yourself and your impact. Because even back then, I liked to think of myself as someone who's really interested in people who really cares about people who want the best for people.
[00:05:22] And yet I could see that we did not have the desired impact on our employees for a long time until we figured it out. . And so I got fascinated by this, like, how do you become a good leader? How do you create an environment where people can be creative, where they can perform, where they feel like their job has a meaning?
[00:05:44] Um, and back then there was really not a lot, of stuff that you could have access to, to learn. Um, and that's when I went down a rabbit hole and I really got totally, totally obsessed and started researching this. I did my master's degree on, uh, strategic human resources management. I then pursued a career in, human resource consulting, starting with uh, Hey group, which was one of those iconic boutique, human resources consultancies.
[00:06:16] One of the directors was Daniel Goldman, the founder, and the guy who popularized emotional intelligence. So was. one of those places where you could li really, really get some answers to how do we cultivate a great culture, a great company culture. And you know, the rest is history. But I think these two things in my life, first, you know, growing up in a very homogenous environment and craving diversity and craving different cultures.
[00:06:45] And then that's realization, oh my gosh, you can have good intentions and still not have the impact that you want to have in the workplace. Um, yeah, they probably brought me to this path, that I still work today.
[00:07:01] Shani: I love that. Just felt very explorative listening to you and, uh, what really resonates also is this, what you talk about, this dissonance between your intention and the impact you want to see, which is an observation I share with you also is.
[00:07:21] In terms of company culture that quite often where we kind of fall short is that we're not bridging that gap in a, in an intentional or qualitative way. And so we have a one culture that we talk about and one culture that we're actually living in. Yeah. And they're, they're not the same.
[00:07:38] So that leads me to the bigger question. You've spent then, a lot of time in this rabbit hole of exploring how to bridge that gap. What, what are some of your conclusions around what makes for a good experience for people or a more human way of, of doing.
[00:08:01] Aga: Hmm. You know, I will start at a very high level in the sense that I will zoom out of the world of work for a moment to, um, sort of relate to that notion of a human experience and what that even is, because I think that it's super relevant when we talk about human experience in the workplace.
[00:08:24] And often we forget that humans are, humans are humans, and it's really irrespective of what context they are put into. We still have these, elementary human attributes and needs and motivations. . Um, and, you know, not to sound too morbid or too philosophical. I think one thing that comes up for me when I think about human experience is our mortality.
[00:08:52] Um, we know if there is anything that is certain in our lives is that they will come to an ending and that frames. Our human experience in a really interesting way because it basically tells us, well, an average human being has 4,000 weeks in their lives. And so like, what do we do with this time? And if we think about a human experience this way that we have, you know, one of the most precious resources that we have is our time on this earth.
[00:09:26] Um, we realize that obviously every single minute, every single hour, every single moment of our lives is precious and important and bringing it to the workplace. Um, when I think about human experience, I'm thinking, Every adult spends at least a third of their lives at work of that precious, precious time that we have so little we spend at work.
[00:09:53] And you know, if you look at data, whether it's engagement surveys or other data, we quickly realize that the time that is being spent at work is not a time that people enjoy very often. It's a time that causes them a lot of suffering, a lot of frustration, a lot of disappointment, and. So I think what's truly important when we think about being human is that we think about, um, life at work in the same way as we think about life full stop.
[00:10:28] That it should be fun, that it should be meaningful, that we should be able to get a sense of belonging at work as well as in our lives because life is short and we deserve this just as a human being. So this is what emerges for me, and this is what comes up when, when I think about a human experience.
[00:10:50] Um, there are many more things that, that of course come up, but I am just curious where you want to take this conversation. So I'll take your lead and follow you.
[00:10:59] Shani: Hmm. No, I was gonna say, I'm, I'm , I'm following your lead. Uh, I just, what jumped out of me and I, I tend to make a little bit of notes just to kind of follow my own thinking, is just that life and life at work are, equivalent.
[00:11:15] They're the same. Mm-hmm. and that we are human. Anywhere that we show up. , we're not more or less human at home or at work. Yeah. We're always bringing with us our brains, our bodies, our sentiments, our history, all of that. It all comes into every context. Uh, yeah. I'm just curious maybe to probe a little bit deeper, um, because I totally see where you're going with this.
[00:11:39] Uh, I know that three of the words that often come back, in your shares and in conversations with your fun meaning and belonging. So maybe we can dive a little bit more into what those are Mm. What they mean and why they're
[00:11:53] Aga: important. Yeah. Yeah. Let's do a little bit of a deep dive into each of these.
[00:11:58] And, you know, before we start recording, we. Lovely chat about what's ha has been happening in our lives and the experiences that you've had. So I'm going to use this to illustrate. Yeah, so you've mentioned that you had this incredible experience of, um, going to a really short morning concert and listening to music, at the very beginning of the day and what a wonderful experience that I was.
[00:12:21] And we kind of tried to unpack. And understand why, what was so special about it and how come that the energy of that experience was so powerful and that you wanted to carry, carry it throughout the day. Um, and this is exactly what fun is to me. And also what we have discovered through our research, which is basically the first element of fun, both in life, I think and in the workplace, is having an opportunity to experience something that allows us to be fully present often is a sense of flow that we experience when we are immersed in an activity that is really absorbing and that energizes us, but it can be engaging in art.
[00:13:09] It can be just being engaged in a conversation like this one. Um, and you know, I think what's interesting about fun is that you can only experience it now. There is no fun in the past that you can experience. There is no fun in the future that you can experience. Well, maybe there's this thing called anticipation, and I think there is an element maybe of fun in, in a sense of anticipation, but, but broadly speaking, fun can only be experienced now.
[00:13:38] And I think what it calls for and what it requires is presence being really present in the moment. . And so in the workplace, just like in any other situation in life, this is our main challenge. Um, people talk about experiences of fun as these experiences of deep immersion or deep connection, and yet we live in the times of, uh, time, time confetti.
[00:14:04] You know, when you look at our calendars, you get these like 30 minute meetings, one after the other. Sometimes they overlap. Um, there is no buffer between the meetings and so there's really no space for us, and I think. Fun, innovation, creativity, or even presence. They need some room to breathe. So one of the challenges I believe, for humans, um, and one of the obstacles to have a great human experience is that we are living this always on, um, go, go, go kind of lives.
[00:14:42] Uh, where we don't allow ourselves the space to be delighted, to be present, to be connected, to be creative, to really, you know, work on an interesting problem and say, Hey, you know, this is, I really couldn't do that. I really couldn't figure it out. Let me just sit for an hour. and think about it deeply, like when was the last time that you gave yourself permission to say, do you know what we, we have this challenge at work and we don't have straightforward answers.
[00:15:14] When was the last time you sat down for an hour, maybe in front of your window or on a balcony or even the forest and just, just thought about it?
[00:15:24] Shani: Mm-hmm. . I love that question, and I love, I love this concept also of this depth and presence and connection, not just with. , you know, somebody else or an idea, but also taking that time to connect into yourself mm-hmm.
[00:15:40] and what you're thinking and what you're feeling. Um, I would say, I mean, just to answer your question also is since having changed track into having my own business, I have been challenging myself to give myself that space more Nice. Um, I have experienced it to be a challenge within the corporate frameworks.
[00:16:05] That's not to say it can't exist in there, I'm sure. No, some people are really good at it. I know I wasn't. Um, but I think, for me, just what springs up also listening to how you talk about fun is how we, yeah. I, I like the world delight as well, is we kind of forget. We kind of forget the power in that.
[00:16:33] Mm-hmm. , uh, when we're running along and I think so, and we forget. I think also with needing to be productive mm-hmm. sometimes is a little bit, counter counter. This, I like to play with the words productivity versus contribution. Mm-hmm. Because I think a lot of what we bring into any space is not being productive.
[00:16:57] It's being, as you were saying, present and with our presence, contributing with different things, whether it be our energy and our mood, whether it be our thoughts and our ideas or different things can come into play, so mm-hmm. . Yeah. Lots of different things come up for me, but I, I, I love how you're describing.
[00:17:17] Aga: And I wanna connect the dots between what you have just mentioned. So that, um, differentiation between productivity and contribution and how fun plays into that. Because when I talk about fun, obviously I'm not talking about the shallow fun of, you know, Friday pizza parties or scrolling of our Facebook feed or whatever.
[00:17:39] I'm talking about that deep fund that comes from a place of presence, um, from a place where we can be created, from a place where we truly connect with someone and so on and so forth. And that is not a place of, um, maximization of productivity like we, right? When you try to multitask and do so many things at the same time, you usually can cannot experience that depth of experience and also that, um, impact or contribution that you want to create.
[00:18:12] And I'm not saying that. We should never try to be productive because there is a time and a place to really tick a lot of these boxes that we need to, or that cross off the items of our to-do list. What I'm saying is we need, um, blocks of time on our calendar to have space for this different quality of engagement in our lives, in our problems, in our relat.
[00:18:39] And this is where I put this umbrella of fun because it really does feel like fun. It's so interesting, you know when, when we interview people and when we ask them, okay, so tell me, when was the last time you had fun at work? It's so fascinating to see that people will always talk about similar things, like, you know, was a really interesting challenge.
[00:19:01] I didn't know the answer. I didn't know if we were able to pull it, pull this off. Usually there are other people there and. It's that deep quality of thinking, deep quality of connection, and also playfulness. I haven't used this word yet, but that's actually the third, uh, element of fun. Um, apart from flow and connection, also playfulness.
[00:19:25] So levity, humor, you know, lightness. Um, I think we take ourselves too seriously very often. , yes, life is serious, um, in itself and sometimes we make it even more serious and grave, um, than we need to. So, , I find in this research, obviously that supports that, that playfulness is so incredibly important if we want to make a positive contribution or if we want to have an impact or if we want to solve a problem.
[00:19:54] Mm-hmm. , um, yeah, so
[00:19:57] Shani: I love that you're bringing in play. I think we're a bit scared sometimes, especially in the corporate space to even use that word, because they, I know, I don't know what people associated with, but, but I really like that it's here. Yeah. It's
[00:20:12] Aga: funny, there's a lot of, there's a lot of pushback when people hear, play or even fun there.
[00:20:18] Like, oh, I dunno, I dunno. A job is a job. Why should you know this is not the place to play? Or this is not necessarily something that needs to be fun. But the funny thing is, like, with many of those things, by the way, that there. Enough evidence to fill a whole library that playfulness and, and joy and fun and presence are what get things done.
[00:20:42] Um, so if companies care about getting things done, if companies care about creating a great workplace, if companies care about having that powerful competitive advantage, I think they should really get more serious about fun. You know, at work because fun is, is serious business. Really. Mm-hmm.
[00:21:03] Shani: We were in a, in a previous episode of this podcast, I was talking to Mi Marlin work with self leadership, and we were talking about this.
[00:21:12] Concept of bringing your full self to work. Mm-hmm. . And I think it also connects to what you're saying here is, if we as companies or you know, or whatever context we're building, whether we it's a company or anything else, if you want people to come in and be themselves and bring their potential and their abilities to a full extent.
[00:21:36] Then, and I think that's where my big question springs from. Like, how do you then actually make it possible to bring that human, to be that human in those contexts? And, and, uh, and I agree with you, I think play is, I had a, I had a, I listened to an episode of the Huberman Lab podcasts, uh, during last year.
[00:21:58] It was on play and it left a huge mark on me, um, simply because, and I won't quote it too much because it's very scientific and I'm, I'm surely going to misquote it somehow. But I think the essence of what I took away from it was that we. , we haven't really redefined play into the adult terms. Mm-hmm. in a, in a very good way.
[00:22:22] Yeah. And so we are still associating play with being this silly person who like would lie on the floor with kids, which is also a great thing to do, by the way. Mm-hmm. . So that's not to say Yeah. But as you say, there's a time and a place. And I think what he really did for me was reframe play. into being something that just, what is it in your brain?
[00:22:45] Mm-hmm. and how can you use it as an adult? And all of a sudden I saw play everywhere. Yeah. So it's it beyond the fun is also exactly these things that you're saying, this like creativity, this exploration, connecting and challenging yourself. Challenging yourself and pushing a little bit and that's also playfulness.
[00:23:07] So I think for me listening to you, there's two things that one is yes. And the other is I think it's also helpful to dare to actually. Have that discussion as an adult is what does actually play Yes. For me now, because yeah, we're not 25 or below, which is kind of one plays, plays a certain role in your life.
[00:23:29] Mm-hmm. And it can play a very different role. So yeah. I think it's fascinating that it comes up. Yeah. We've, we've touched a little on your other two words, meaning kind of, I don't know, both meaning and, and belonging. It. They all fit together, but yeah, let's just pick each of them apart a little. So what is the meaning for you and why, why is that important?
[00:23:56] Aga: Well, to have meaning. I mean, obviously, um, there are so many people that have talked about this already, so I'm not going to say anything new or groundbreaking, but we all know that human beings have this inherent need to be a part of something larger than them and feel like they're contributing to something that, um, gives them a sense of meaning.
[00:24:22] And these might be different things for different people, but unless we have that sense of direction and that sense of contribution that I know is an important word for you, um, we will never have. A positive human experience to the extent that is possible. I'm not saying that if you don't have sense of meaning, you are not having a good life.
[00:24:45] I'm saying that if you are missing a sense of meaning in your life, your life could be better. Not that it's not good, but you, it could definitely be better. And there is still a lot of potential that you can discover, and I think we all crave it. Um, when you talk to people very quickly, you will realize that everyone is looking for a sense of meaning.
[00:25:07] Everyone has that question like, you know, what is my life about? And, and why am I on the earth? And, um, you know, what, what are the important things for me? Um, and in the context of work, what that means is really am. Contributing to something that is meaningful to me and do I see the impact of my work on others?
[00:25:31] And this is something that is very often underestimated. I think partially this is what we've inherited from the industrial era where, you know, people were working at this production line and basically they were really just, uh, a part of the process and saw a tiny fraction of the whole process. There is nothing more dehumanizing than that in the workplace.
[00:25:55] It's basically treating human beings like robots, but unfortunately our economy and a lot of businesses were built on that foundation for the sake of efficiency. And so, back to your point, um, efficiency, contribution over efficiency, um, or, or even effectiveness. Uh, we have a need and also this is what makes us, I think, more powerful than ai, that we can, um, use our judgment and steer towards desired outcomes.
[00:26:31] In creative ways if we get that sense of direction and meaning. Um, so back to my point, we need to see what is the impact of our work on others. Uh, it doesn't necessarily have to be the client or the patient if you are in a pharmaceutical industry, although that would be ideal. But for a lot of people, this is not entirely practical or possible.
[00:26:53] But also it's interesting what we've discovered, um, doing our research, working with, a lot of companies usually, growth stage companies or scale labs. It was that it was equally powerful for people to have an experience of an impact they had on a colleague. So not necessarily an end user, but even, you know, how is my work helping a colleague of mine to have an easier life ha or, serve the company's purpose in a better way.
[00:27:21] So that's, um, that's definitely important. Clearly, uh, there is a sense of meaning that comes from the accomplishment of our own goals. So for a lot of people, they need to feel like they are progressing, like they're being able to reach whatever they've set as that destination for themselves personally.
[00:27:42] But I think. For everyone. It also has this collective aspect. Am I contributing to something larger than me? Um, or how can I, and a lot of organizations that I see, they don't provide people with that. Um, and it's very sad because I think first it's not good for business if, again, for, for those executives who are focused predominantly on how can we grow our business, um, I have never seen a business that was sustainable, that lacked a sense, a clear mission and a clear sense of direction and how they are generating value, right?
[00:28:25] Mm-hmm. It's all we talk about in business. How is our business generating value? How is our business making this world a better place? And so, um, there is a great opportunity there to be clear about it and to use. your purpose as an organization to, um, and connected to what people are doing so that they have a better visibility into why they wa their work is important, even if it seems like it might not be as important as someone else's job.
[00:28:59] And that's the case by the way, very often as well. So like you have people who are considered those important contributors, salespeople, whatever, who bring the revenue. And then you have the so-called support functions. And even the way we refer to these groups, like support mm-hmm. Already indicates that they're not as important or maybe not, you know, not the main actors in, this practical of business.
[00:29:25] And I think it's really important to turn it on its hand and make these unsung heroes, um, feel equally important because they are. Like, obviously the sales department couldn't function without those support functions, so it's really important to highlight that.
[00:29:43] Shani: Hmm. I love what you're saying around that, and I agree with you that a lot of what comes with the industrial setup is this hierarchy of importance also in terms of, um, yes.
[00:29:57] Who carries the most value. Yeah. Um, which is hard. Uh, and another, another kind of conflict in this is also when you're talking about value, I was also thinking about, One thing that I also see that we struggle with is holding in the same space, talking about creating value beyond monetary value. Mm-hmm.
[00:30:25] and being human and like creating value for people in your organization and creating monetary value or profit or being productive. Yes. And it's, it, it is almost, quite often in the discussion, like it's a binary thing. It's an option. It's either or. ? Uh, yeah. Like why do you think it's so hard for us to actually connect those dots and say that they're kind of dependent on each, in my world, they're dependent on each
[00:30:52] Aga: other, of course, and we know that they're dependent on each other.
[00:30:55] But I think Shani, you are making such an important point. And for me, this is where I would like the future of work to be where we will not have to make the case for humanity in the workplace. And where one of the reasons why companies exist is going to be to create a great human experience. Not a great employee experience even, but a great human experience.
[00:31:22] Because back to my initial point, you know, work is part of a life experience. And so if we look at it holistically, work is obviously a really important part of people's lives and responsible businesses and responsible, um, nations. Should pay more attention into what experience humans have during those working hours.
[00:31:47] And so whilst I understand that today our, economy is still still set up in a way where we prioritize, growth in that is measured by revenue, et cetera, et cetera. But I really hope that in the future we're going to, um, see those, you know, not triple, but maybe quadruple, bottom lines where human experience is going to be one of the ways we measure business success.
[00:32:18] Shani: Hmm. That sounds like a dream .
[00:32:21] Aga: I know, but actually, when you think about what some of the companies are doing, and I have a front row seat, toward some of, scale up are doing right now in this space because we run a community for cultural leaders, um, who are looking for new ways of cultivating thriving cultures.
[00:32:40] And so they are the, and the conversations that we are having are not really about what is the best practice, but what is the next practice and like, how can we create this workplace that we dream about? And I see a lot of, I see a lot of people to really grapple with this idea and how we can bring it into the now rather than just dream of it in the future.
[00:33:03] Um, not to say that I could say without any qualms that yes, I have five great examples of companies that have already done it 100%, but I'm seeing this movement. That is starting of businesses and not just human capital or human resources people, but people who are CEOs or COOs who, really feel that responsibility for the experience that people have at work.
[00:33:33] Not simply because it's good for business, but because it's the responsible thing to do as an organization. So it's encouraging. It is.
[00:33:42] Shani: I mean, and I share in your observation that there is a lot of movement and a lot of new intentions, uh, making themselves visible. There are so many things that you're saying that I could pick up on, but just to, to reflect on one thing.
[00:33:59] you were saying, is this work being part of life? And it's very similar to a lot of the things that we work with, which is actually relating to the work experience as part of the life flow. It's not separate. We're, and we're so good at com compartmentalizing ourselves. It's like, and work and, yeah.
[00:34:19] Or we think we are and as nature is here and I'm somewhere else, and, and rather than seeing this full flow, and then what happens when we, as you say, set out to create. Something human for the people in the workplace. Yeah. And we actually take the lens of their right life cycle rather than just the eight to four or nine to five or whatever hours it is that people are wor are working.
[00:34:48] Yeah. I think it opens up so much possibility, to take a different lens mm-hmm. and to explore new options. Mm-hmm. that said, it's, it is, it's quite challenging, I think. Yeah.
[00:35:01] Aga: Yeah. And it's, it's challenging. . And it's also quite ironic, right, because you see so many organizations focusing on social impact and how they can, um, help the society improve, especially, in certain areas.
[00:35:16] And yet they are not thinking about the social impact that they could have just by creating that better experience for their employees. Mm-hmm. . But of course we both know that company culture and the experience that people have at work, they jump the fence and they follow people home. And so if you are having a really bad experience at work, this is going to seep into your personal life.
[00:35:42] Of course, this is going to affect those tiny kids that you are bringing up at home and your spouse and your friends and your neighbors. So really the ripple effect of that is huge. Mm-hmm. . And so my dream is that companies, organizations, businesses, whatever you want to refer to them, that they. Well, one of their goals is going to have a net positive impact in that sense on the society as well through their employees.
[00:36:09] Hmm. So it's not just not doing damage, but really improving people's lives because of the work environment that they're creating.
[00:36:19] Shani: I love what you're saying cuz it, it, it also aligns with an observation that I've been making over the years when you follow all these, all this sustainability work that is being done to take care of our planet and not leave a footprint.
[00:36:32] And, and a question that I've had to keep coming up over the years is, but how are we thinking sustainably about our workforce and that people that come into our offices and sometimes the environments that people work in are everything but sustainable. Exactly as you say, because they have negative ripples into their lives rather than positive ripples into their lives.
[00:36:52] Um, which is a huge thing. So it's just including. The human humans into that agenda, I think is a massive, massive piece. I also just wanna, um, loop back into your third word, which is belonging. Yeah. Uh, which is a huge one as well. Mm-hmm. , they're, these are all like, big, big concepts. Yeah. Um, and what are your thoughts around that?
[00:37:19] Aga: Well, I'm going to connect it to something that you've mentioned. Um, about your previous guest and how she talked about, bringing a whole self to work and being able to be authentic because a part of that, it's one of the elements of belonging and how we think about belonging. How I think about belonging in life as well, frankly, um, generally not just the work life, but life in general.
[00:37:46] And, you know, the first thing really that we need to feel like we belong is that says that we are seen and understood for who we are. Um, acceptance comes next, but I think the first steps are really, I am being seen and I am being accepted. For who I am and there is no judgment. And that's already a big ask because as we know, , um, societies and humans are full of biases and judgments, so it's quite a difficult thing to do.
[00:38:21] But unfortunately, , there's no real belonging without that. So for me, you know, when we have all these conversations about d e I and so on and so forth, it's great, but, um, we really need to go back to the foundations, um, and talk about, right? So what is the, that foundational thing that we need to have in place?
[00:38:44] Because Esri Bryant, who's my upcoming guest on, on the cultural app podcast, said, and I loved it, she said, you know, we talk about d e i, diversity and inclusion. It should be i n D because really, if you are, um, middle-aged, white, uh, males don't have a great experience in your company, it's not going to be a great place for anyone else either.
[00:39:10] And so to paraphrase that and link it back to my point, if the majority of your folks don't feel seen and don't feel accepted for who they are, Forget about everything else. You have to fix that piece first. And this can be quite simple and yet quite challenging even, you know, and these days it's harder because we are not even in, in the same space.
[00:39:36] But I remember from my experience back in the office, we had, um, a boss who would walk into the office with his hands, um, looking at the floor and running to his office. And the reason was that he was always late. So he knew that if he raised his gaze and greeted people in, in the open space, it would take some time.
[00:39:58] And so he would be even more late for his meetings. And so he would literally never acknowledge anyone from his team in the morning. And, you know, these little things, they do have an impact. And in that team, people didn't feel seen. and it was as simple as that. Mm-hmm. . And so eventually, and I feel comfortable talking about this because he talks about this openly as one of his learnings, how he learned how to be a more inclusive leader.
[00:40:26] And it really started with super simple things like raise my gaze, look at people and say Good morning. Hmm. You know, and then of course, um, don't judge for how they show up for how they think, the background they have, et cetera, et cetera. But that's, that's an advanced, um, skill.
[00:40:45] Yeah. So that's a, like the first thing, the first, the most important thing when it comes to belonging is that I can be myself without fear of being judged or rejected by this group. And then of course there is this piece around, um, can I then contribute? Um, can I contribute to this, to this group in a meaningful way?
[00:41:08] And are my contributions valued by, um, by this group? Because the reality is this is how we are wired. This is the ancient human wiring, contribution. Back to your point. Um, has been a survival mechanism for us. You know, in, in those Asian tribes, if someone was not useful to the tribe, they would just kick them out and they would become lunch for a lion.
[00:41:34] So this is what we, the what we need to feel. And often, unfortunately, especially in very bureaucratic or hierarchical organizations, people feel like a cog in a machine that is not really meaningful and important and it's really hard to contribute in, in meaningful ways. So it takes away from, from a sense of belonging.
[00:41:57] Um, so creating space for people to contribute is super important and. The third level, the most advanced level, I would say, when it comes to belonging and when you really know that you belong to a group is or not only you are being seen and accepted. Not only you can contribute in meaningful ways, but you can also challenge the status quo.
[00:42:19] Hmm. And you can say, the way we are doing this, it's. Stupid. I have a better idea. Do you want to talk about it? Um, that of course requires a huge amount of psychological safety. So there is no belonging for me without psychological safety. And these are the, the three levels that we talk about when we talk about belonging.
[00:42:38] Take a family, you know, same thing really when you think about a family. Um, I've read somewhere, and I'm sorry that I cannot quote the source because I completely forgot, but it was so shocking in, in, in his truth to me. Um, there was research that you can predict the rate of divorce in couples just by observing how they greet each other when the other person enters the house after they've been away for a few.
[00:43:05] And so there are couples that the person, whatever they're doing, reading a book or cooking a meal, basically greets the other person without raising their gaze, or maybe even doesn't greet them. Someone walks in and you just completely ignore them. Or there are couples or family members that will raise their gaze.
[00:43:24] There will be a greeting, they will be genuine interest in how are you, and so on and so forth. Um, so you see that in families as well. And, um, again, same human experience at work. If you don't have these three things, um, you cannot talk about a sense of belonging and it takes work to, of course, to cultivate that.
[00:43:45] Mm-hmm. ,
[00:43:46] Shani: I love what you're saying here around it not being about agreement. Mm-hmm. . So I think sometimes we, we attribute. Belonging to being quite homogenous. Yeah. And it isn't. And it's about diversity of ideas and diversity of personality and diversity of everything. Having space to exist. in the same setting and it being okay.
[00:44:13] Aga: Mm-hmm. and then, yeah. Yeah. Thank you Shani for underscoring that because, um, I, I find myself not emphasizing that enough, but it is so, so incredibly important. Always say, you know, that people often will think that a great team or a great team culture is, um, about harmony. Um, and the reality is that the greatest teams out there, have enough psychological safety to have that intellectual friction.
[00:44:42] And there is actually a lot of intellectual friction and debate. Um, because you have trust and you know that you are not taking an interpersonal risk by speaking. And, um, I've been reading Ancient Greeks recently, and it was so wonderful because there's a word and it's called paresia and paresia. In ancient Greek it means basically say itk.
[00:45:08] And it was particularly used in the context of speaking truth to power. But not only, it's basically like being able to speak your mind and that's never, um, harmonious, you know, and even, in personal lives and in personal situations, if someone asks you, Hey, do I look good in this dress?
[00:45:29] Or whatever, and you don't think it suits them and you say that, Yes, it feels a bit, you know, mm, not the most comfortable thing to do. It's definitely not harmonious, but the intention behind that is what's important. And when people know that the intention is, I have your back and I'm doing this because I want to help you out, um, then you can say anything.
[00:45:54] Hmm. So can exist. Um, but it's, it's, it's not easy to build it for sure.
[00:46:02] Shani: No, I think it's definitely a practice. I think, and it's one of the things that we've, we discussed in the previous podcast around self-leadership as well, is as much as it is, Every interaction is about what you bring and how you take responsibility for that.
[00:46:17] Of course. And how you decide to show up Yeah. Is also how you receive the other. And so it's this dual thing, I think especially when there is that sharing and, and that potential friction, which, you know, that's the way we advance. Yeah. We, we need the friction. Yeah. But is, I think just listening to you, my thought was a lot around it becomes about not, not how much friction we have, but how well we deal with the friction.
[00:46:49] Yes. And how well we can transmute or transform it into something that serves us. Mm-hmm. , because it can. a lot of bad things if we are not, um, present Yeah. Or conscious enough to make something of it. And it can also produce really, really fantastic things. Mm-hmm. . So there's that. Uh, and I guess maybe that's where it's also difficult to find the sense of trust because it is scary.
[00:47:17] Yes.
[00:47:17] Aga: We don't know where you end up with it. Yeah. It is scary and I think you really need a deep sort of relationship and that foundation of trust with people to be able to do that. And I love this point and this thread that you pulled out from a conversation about how you receive it. Um, because, you know, I think I was society generally, it's quite an individualistic one and very often we put emphasis on courage of the individual to speak up.
[00:47:46] Um, but I personally. boldness is one of my personal values and so I've always valued being bold, being truthful. And I also found that there are certain environments or certain people where it's much easier to be truthful and certain environments when it's completely impossible. And so I think it's, especially if we are talking to an audience of people who are in companies interested in cultivating healthy cultures, it is more of a systemic problem than an individual problem.
[00:48:20] And we really need to think about how do we create an environment where the truth is welcome and managed, as you say. , um, and digested in a positive way. Mm-hmm. . Um, so it's not just how we communicate those truths, but it's also how we receive them, as you say. Absolutely. And whether we do have a system where we have these listening spaces, this is something that Megan RAs, one of the guests on my show, talks about beautifully.
[00:48:52] Um, and you know, if, if you ask an average company, what are your thinking? What are your, speaking or listening, spaces that you create for your employees? They will say, what, what are listening spaces like? And I think that's such a valuable practice to really have, um, some sort of a mechanism where people, where there's a context, you know, you know what's expected from you.
[00:49:17] That this is a place where we come together to talk about difficult topics and to digest them in a way that is going to lead to positive outcomes and, uh, enable us to make positive contributions.
[00:49:31] Shani: I would love to dive into that a little bit more. You're talking about some quite practical examples.
[00:49:37] Mm-hmm. creating spaces, so mm-hmm. , what can it look like and what does it look like? Yeah. From, the things that you're observing. Yeah. When companies actually. Intentionally create the spaces for fun, meaning, and belonging. What are, what are some of the things that they do? .
[00:49:54] Aga: Yeah. So I can, I can share something that, um, we've seen many companies do because we often support them to, to do that.
[00:50:03] And that's around how can our culture, help us to bring our vision to life and how can our culture, um, help us, execute in our strategy. And this is basically, A session where we bring people who talk about what's the vision for the business, talk about strategy, talk about the main business goals.
[00:50:29] Typically these are senior leaders, although sometimes we will identify a group that we call a culture squad, but there clients very often use different words for this group of people. And these are basically folks who, uh, are really well connected within the organization. So social capital is incredibly important, but what's also incredibly important is how much trust they have with, the other team members.
[00:50:54] So we call them either informal influencers or cultures squad members because people trust them. People are well connected to. So this group of people sort of presents where we are going, what we are trying to achieve, et cetera, et cetera, and then we engage the whole organization in this incredibly simple, yet powerful exercise of what do we need to stop doing in terms of mindsets, assumptions, behaviors, practices, workflows, because.
[00:51:30] it hinders our ability to bring this vision to life, and it hinders our ability to execute on our strategy. Um, this is often done anonymously to create safety, and especially when you don't have a high level of maturity when it comes to psychological safety, it's better to do this anonymously. So we, we ask this stop question, then we ask the start question.
[00:51:54] So what do we need to start doing in order to bring our vision to life again, when it comes to not only just doing things, but what mindsets, what assumptions, what beliefs, what practices, what workflows, et cetera, et cetera. And then finally, What do we need to continue doing? And this is about celebrating what already works well.
[00:52:16] And after we gather that data from people that is in the context of how can we be a successful organization, we rely on that culture squad to have a series of two-way conversations with people to really get to the root causes of the themes that have been identified. So, you know, you might see that we need to stop shooting ideas down.
[00:52:43] As I think that needs to stop if we want to be more innovative, because we will need to be more innovative to reach our vision. And yet whenever someone comes with a new idea, there are 10 people who will immediately shoot it down. So, so there is a conversation and a listening space organized for the key themes where we try to understand what are the root causes of that.
[00:53:04] So we try to have a conversation, not just about what's happening on the surface, because that's not enough, but what is. People's experience and, where is this coming from so that we can address the problem at the, at the root level as well. Um, so this is an example of what companies do. You know, I think that, um, given the stage of, of our evolution, I would say, as businesses, this is a good approach because it's so directly, um, connected to the business outcomes that it kind of makes sense.
[00:53:43] If you suggest something like that to A C E O, they will say, yeah, okay, I'm willing to invest, people's time. This, because it sounds like it makes sense. Um, I think one of the unfortunately mistakes that a lot of people do when they try to create these listening spaces is that they start from the ideal, which would be people should care about human experience at work no matter what.
[00:54:09] And so we have this conversation that is slightly outside of the context of the business, and then you don't get enough support, you don't get enough buy-in, and it never happens basically. So I think going back to the point of how do we create the, these workplaces that are built on these foundations of fun, meaning, and belonging.
[00:54:30] You know, one of the things that I've learned is that we need to be pragmatic and we need to, you know, someone said, um, , that is incredible what you are able to accomplish if you are willing, and open, uh, to someone else taking credits, . Yeah. Right. And, and, and I think what I see, what I see happen very often in organizations is that we are way too idealistic.
[00:55:04] We. To be seen as the change agent. And, um, it really doesn't always work this way. Whereas if we are willing to have someone else drive this and support, um, the creation of that environment for the sake of the business, because that's the main priority for the business, it tends to be easier, to, to drive the change forward.
[00:55:29] So that's, that's one of my learnings that whereas we would love to see that world where everyone is committed to creating a great human experience, irrespective of whether it's helping the business or not. Today, the reality is, it helps if you can show how it's going to help the business be successful.
[00:55:47] Hmm.
[00:55:49] Shani: Uh, I love these, just made a note kind of because it, that's, these things are both on our collective and individual level is. Listening and asking questions, connecting into the business, making culture part of the business, not a sideline, satellite thing that's going on. And I love your point, and it's same thing that I have observed for years is leave your ego at the door.
[00:56:17] Yes. Um, it's, yeah, I, I have, I've had this term for, for years of working of, I call it fall in love with the impact mm-hmm. . Yes. Which is, I. And I, I know I listened to you and you were talking about commitment versus attachment. Mm-hmm. , uh, and for me that's in the same ballpark of things is commit to the impact.
[00:56:41] Don't attach to the idea or your method or whatever it is that you came up with. Yes. Commit to what it is that you wanna see as a result and be willing to leave all of the rest and whoever came up with it, and even if it was you, and even when it's hard, and then step away and take a breath. Yeah. And throw it out.
[00:57:00] Yeah. Uh, which is really hard. Just to wrap up. Yeah. I wanna, I wanna ask you, cuz here are some concrete things that you said, um, these are such big questions and it can feel really daunting to start tackling them. Mm-hmm. . And so is there anything else you think and I wanna say Yeah. On an individual or maybe on a team level, something.
[00:57:30] more aside from these things that we already talked about that people can do Mm. To start kind of getting on this journey towards Yeah. Including the human.
[00:57:40] Aga: Yeah. Yeah. What a wonderful question. Shani. You know, probably, um, first of all, we've already had a few amazing conversations and I think we, we really, um, we really resonate with what each other is saying.
[00:57:55] So I'm not surprised that you are asking such great questions, and I'm grateful because it kind of helps me reflect on this as well. And as you might know, having listened to, to a few episodes of my show, I feel like it's incredibly important to give people some actionable insights. And so thanks for this opportunity to speak to that.
[00:58:18] Um, so really quick, I am a big believer in what French, I'm not a French speaker, but I just love, um, what it sounds like in French. Um, there is this phrase and it's basically small actions. It's like these baby steps. And so I am a big fan of creating a great culture and human experience through these small baby steps and baby actions using the, using the idea of a flywheel.
[00:58:52] So it's basically what, what do I mean by that? You know, if you had a huge turbine, right? And if you wanted to put us in motion, you would push on it and try to put some pressure so that you, you move it forward. And the first push, the second push, the third push, the fifth push, nothing happens. And then suddenly at the sixth or whatever, it starts moving and then it gains momentum and it keeps going on its own.
[00:59:18] And the question that people love to answer is, was it the fifth bush or the sixth bush or the seventh bush? That was the most important. And obviously the answer is no. They were all important. And so back to the tiny steps and tiny actions, this flywheel idea. Is create your flywheel. So define what a human, good human experience at work looks like in your company.
[00:59:46] And you have all the rights to create your own definition. And frankly, I think that's the only way because every organization is different or every human life is different and we have all the right and all the creativity also necessary to do that. So define what is it that makes a great experience? Um, for me, the pillars that I have found are fun, meaning, and belonging.
[01:00:09] But they might be something completely different for, um, a specific organization, but define them. And once you have these elements identified, what makes a great experience in your company, in your. Then I would say identify these tiny steps that you can take in order to start that flywheel effect and you will not see results.
[01:00:35] And that's where I think the discipline of the practice comes in. You will not see. , um, mindblowing results immediately. And that's okay. And that's exactly what the game is all about, because we need to have the courage, and this is where my value, I guess, of being bold comes in because we really need to have the courage to keep with the practice and making the positive changes without seeing.
[01:01:00] Results immediately. So to your point about impact and contribution, I think by taking an action, you are making a contribution. And you should always be thinking, we are taking the small action, this is our contribution, but don't be impatient to see the impact. It's going to come and the flywheel effect is going to start as well, but it's not going to happen immediately.
[01:01:23] Mm-hmm. So that would be my practical thing. Um, draw out your flywheel, identify these elements, and then identify collectively, ideally. So I would involve other people. If you are a group, what would be those tiny actions that we can take to start the flywheel effect and see what happens and experiment with these actions.
[01:01:44] But don't be too, you know, too impatient to see results day one. Mm. They never do. No one becomes a success overnight. No company creates a thriving culture overnight. It really takes time and it's okay. .
[01:02:00] Shani: I love that. Think big and act small. Mm-hmm. is, uh, That's really useful. . Yeah. Mm-hmm. I wanna thank you so much.
[01:02:13] We could have gone on easily for another hour, . Oh, for sure. Um, but just, uh, huge thank you for, thank you sh generous sharing of your experience, your research, your thoughts. Really, really, truly appreciate it, and I've learned a lot, from speaking with you. So
[01:02:34] Aga: thank you so much. Thank you. Sh I look forward to our conversations in the future as well, because I enjoy, um, speaking with you so much.
[01:02:43] And. Honestly, I didn't know where this conversation, um, would take us. I'm a bit surprised that we landed on these three pillars as well because I was completely open to speak about anything. Um, but you've really helped me to reflect on, um, our work and the way we think about cultivating cultures from a different perspective.
[01:03:03] So I'm really grateful to you as well.
[01:03:05] Shani: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to the Experienced Designers. I hope this episode brought you some new insight and hopefully, as it did for me, some new questions to get curious about. A special thank you to aga for sharing her observations, insight and concrete tips.
[01:03:25] And don't forget to click subscribe, and as always, get in touch with any questions or suggestions. That's how better experiences are built.
