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Books we discussed:

The Experience Economy - Review here
Exponential Organisations - Review here

Experience Designers Ep 2

(We use a mix of automated transcript software and editing for readability)

Steve (Host): [00:00:14] Hi Morten, thank you very much for joining me for this episode.

Morten: [00:00:20] My pleasure.

Steve (Host): [00:00:20] Good stuff. So we've got a few things we wanted to cover off today as part of this interview or discussion. A lot will be centered around the employee experience and the evolution and where we think this could be heading and how H.R. departments could be developing the employee experience and playing a big part in this.

Steve (Host): [00:00:48] I think one of the things for me just to give some context is that I think generally right now the employee experiences is a really hot topic. I think we've gone from a period probably in the last ten years where there's always been a focus on employee engagement and certainly in the UK there was lots of research undertaken by a chap called David McCleod. He did some work under the previous UK government Labour government and latterly into the Conservative government which is around employee engagement and looking at it from a kind of top down perspective and more recently with the evolution on employee experience, it tends to be that kind of bottom up approach, looking at shaping and creating experiences for employees.


Steve (Host): [00:01:41] So I guess this falls in line with some of the experience economy stuff, which I'm sure we'll cover. What's your view around around this, where do you think we are around the topic of employee experience right now? What driving this?


Morten: [00:02:00] Well I think there's a lot of discussion on the topic and what I've been noticing is that people seem to have a little bit of unnecessary difficulties. You can sort of attack this from an array of different angles. And for me it's pretty simple because I'm a fully certified experience economy expert. So for me the whole methodology is there but it's really just applying experience design to this new area. Just as you would with any other business or business area. It's just another business area that needs to go through the same sort of change.


Morten: [00:02:53] So the methodology is there and there's a lot of models. And I think if this is something you want to work with. Then all the models all the ways of viewing things that's in the experience economy can be applied in a pretty straightforward way and easily implemented. So for me it's easy, but it seems to be there's a big discussion also, the different parts you know. Okay so what's the employee experience here? What's the employee experience there? And one other thing when you talk about experience, it usually centers on things that are sort of experiences by themselves. So in the experience economy you often speak about concerts or festivals or you know tourism stuff like that. But this is really a way of looking at things that could be applied to anything and especially in business and still make a lot of sense. So it doesn't have to be sort of above the experience you've just got to work in the morning. I mean you can you can even work on that if you want to.


Steve (Host): [00:04:05] So just taking from the other functions or other business areas that have gone through this change. I mean H.R. and I think learning and development tend to be the ones that kind of lag behind I think, is my view within organisations. Which is crazy because it's the most people focussed areas. For the listeners out there that are sitting in a human resource department or talent department what kind of symptoms do you think that they will be seeing within the organization that would I guess lean well to kind of say we need to look at adopting or engaging some kind of experience design.


Morten: [00:04:48] Well, when I worked with experience design in other areas the first thing you really need. Well first you have to decide that this is what you want to do. I mean you can't just. Well I'll do some of it. So if it gets to be a strategic approach I think that's good. And I think the way H.R. could look at it is that if you want to step up the H.R. Then this is definitely a way to go.


Morten: [00:05:16] There's something about the name, I mean H.R. human resources and if you if you look at resources as a word in itself it's like people are being dug up from the ground or picked off trees and they're really not because they're they're actually human. So, in the commodities industry, which would be all the other kinds of resources, metals and crops etc... In this economy the business imperative is to supply availability. So what H.R. is doing right now is they have this commodities approach to people. So what they do is they supply availability, so they have a steady influx of people to the organization.


Morten: [00:06:03] The other thing they're doing is linked to the product economy where they where they control the costs. So that would be sort of negotiating your salary or bonus programs and stuff like that. So really right now what they do in H.R. is that they're stuck in a sort of a narrative that is linked to the commodities and to the goods economy. And in the progression of economic value, the next economy is a service economy then it's an experience economy and then it's a transformation economy.


Morten: [00:06:35] But what does H.R. and you probably have to change the name, but what does HR look like if it's a service. What does it look like if it's an experience and that would be employee experience and what does it look like if it's the transformation economy.


Morten: [00:06:50] So a lot of things are linked to the way they speak about things so. So we we discussed this briefly, so you had this is where talent acquisition, so the notion that you acquire talent just as you would acquire buildings, machinery or physical assets, I can't get my head around that, why would talk about people in a way that sort of puts them on the same level as a piece of machinery. I don't get that. It's very much this industrial mindset about what work is and what people is. I think in many ways, this is a bit harsh but I think in many ways H.R. is dehumanizing humans because they speak about them in ways that makes them not human.


Morten: [00:07:41] There's this big Danish company the other day a novel, you probably heard of them. They had to lay off 1300 people. And they way they speak about it is not that they destroy, I mean at least momentarily the lives of 1300 people. No they're just cutting back. I mean, what's that about?


Morten: [00:08:03] So there's this lack of empathy, there's this lack of understanding that people wake up in the morning with with real aspirations about themselves and what they want to do in a workplace or in their private life. So how can you sort of tap into that. I think that should be a thing that H.R. might think about in a different way. Yeah.


Steve (Host): [00:08:26] There were a couple of not so much models but books that we talked about which was the exponential growth and the experience economy. Can you give us a bit of an overview for those that aren't aware of those books or having come across them yet?


Morten: [00:08:42] The experience economy was written by Joe Pine and I think it's sort of 20 years old. So it's not a new thing, he's still traveling the roads with this book and everybody's saying "oh there's this new thing around", but it's been around for 20 years and I've worked with Joe on a lot of occasions.


Morten: [00:09:00] Then you have this book called the exponential organization and the exponential organization is really about building a new sort of organization. And the main feature about this kind of organisation is they have to be scalable. If you're a startup this makes sense, but if you're a large company it might make less sense. But the thing about startups is that they don't have to be scalable because as you go along you need you need more people or you need a little more people for your time period or something like that.


Morten: [00:09:38] And they have these two things so they have these if you can tap into a community or crowd that sort of links to what you do or things your work with. Then you have something called staff on demand. So it's really much the notion that if the future of work is people working, they might have a sort of a regular job or maybe they work on different projects all the time so they're more free agents.


Morten: [00:10:07] The way I think about it, if everybody is working as a free agent or have a part of their life where they work as free agent. How do you ensure that if they can choose. I mean you have the means to be working from anywhere and with anyone in the world. So if you can choose from anything, how do you then make sure that people come back to your organization your projects all the time. I think you might look at the employee experiences as a way of not ensuring it, but making it more probable that they would actually choose your organization.


[00:10:41] Yeah. I think we've definitely seen in the US and UK, Sweden less so actually. I would say that the gig economy from that perspective. So the workforce is obviously becoming far more liquid or far more diverse from that perspective. And also as well as it kind of that's kind of from an external point of view but internally within organisations we're starting to see companies like ING direct for example, moving into a much more fluid workforce, implementing agile not just from a systems point of view but across the organisational. So it's quite interesting it supports that notion around that we've got this kind of workforce that is less static, it's a lot more kind of liquid it moves around.


Morten: [00:11:26] Absolutely. It's funny that you mentioned ING because ING has been one of the first movers in terms of applying the Experience Economy principals to some of their banking business. So there they're quite upfront.


Steve (Host): [00:11:43] Yes they are.


Morten: [00:11:45] Yeah.


Steve (Host): [00:11:45] I saw something on YouTube actually and they shared just how quickly they move from an idea into a into putting it out there with customers and then just refining in real-time with customers. Very lean and agile. So, it's definitely happening, whether it's happening quick enough is another questions. I think its exciting, the work place has to change. I think you know the way we're working is evolving into lots of directions actually.


Morten: [00:12:22] If you have LinkedIn feed open you sometimes get the notion "I have to do all these things". So I think one way to look at the employee experience is that it's an option, it's something you can work with in a limited setting. If you just want to try something out, the models are out there. I view methods and models is very much the same as sunglasses so you put on a specific pair of sunglasses then you know, this is enhanced, this gets a little harder to see and then you can put on another set of sunglasses. So it's really much about trying and then having short feedback loops and short feedback loops is the same as being Agile. So just go out and test something, don't be too afraid and then try to pick up as you go.


Steve (Host): [00:13:18] So that that's an interesting one. So, I think principally that sounds brilliant. And I don't think it's organisations are obviously doing it. But there's some that just really struggle to even get started with something like that. And that's kind of obviously the way the environment or culture is. So because obviously moving forward and failing sometimes isn't always perceived particularly well in the traditional organisational sense. But it's important in terms of learning and moving forward and I understand that.


Morten: [00:13:52] There's this big discussion now, at least in Denmark because you have to you need to learn to fail and stuff like that because you have this zero fail cultures in alot of organizations. But it's really not about failing. I mean it's not learning by crashing, necessarily. It just means that you have to accept knowledge or insight as an outcome. Okay, so did it work? Maybe not the way we intended but we learned a lot of things. And this learning we can actually use. So I think it's more about changing the output.


Steve (Host): [00:14:28] Yes. Yes.


Morten: [00:14:29] And insight can never be a bad output. I mean if you ask people, "When did you learn the most", it was usually when they made mistakes, right? So everybody agrees on this on a human level. So why should it be any different just because we're in a company setting, it's going to be the same thing.


Steve (Host): [00:14:46] Absolutely.


Morten: [00:14:48] And then there's this other thing, whenever you try to implement or apply Experience Economy design principles. It's not expensive. Doesn't cost you anything. It's only sort of putting on a different pair of sunglasses and then sort of restructuring the way you think about things. That's the only thing you have to do. It might be difficult in terms of you just need this adjustment of your head sort of. But it's not expensive, people always say that if they're uncertain about what it is that you want to do. "Oh that sounds expensive", but it's really not, it doesn't cost you anything it's just a way of restructuring the way you think about things.


Steve (Host): [00:15:35] Yes. We talked previously about an approach just to help organizations or people get started, which is around communities of practice. Which I thought was a really wonderful way or really low touch way of creating a bit of a movement.


[00:16:00] Communities of practice. Well as a form it's very old it's probably as old as human beings but the thing is that it's a more collaborative format. So if you have sort of large scale organizations and you might have people you know spread out or let's say most of Europe and you know there's a guy in Germany who does the same thing as you. There's this woman in Sweden who does the same thing and maybe somewhere else but you never speak to each other. So what organization and people can do is set up these communities themselves. Where they meet and if you have practitioners in the same practice area and you just put them into a room and you just leave them there. They're going to spend a few meetings just talking about do you experience the same thing as I do. Do you have the same the same obstacles? Do you have all the same problems? And then people tend to agree, that can be normalizing in sort of a way. So it's not me who is off my rocker. And then after a few meetings they are going to be looking to what it is that they do and what usually comes from that is a lot of inputs to how you can change processes, how you can change all kinds of workflows and actually pick up a lot of efficiency from that.


Morten: [00:17:38] So you give people a sort of an internal network. It can help if you have a very siloed organization, it doesn't break down the silo, it just creates this thing that goes across. And the more communities of practice you have inside the organization the more it's going to be a thing that of course I speak to people over here, of course i should meet people outside of my own silo. People who do maybe something else because, at some point when you work with processes, somebody takes over a process at a certain point, then it moves somewhere else. So you have to speak to these people who are taking over the process so you get this follow through thing.


Morten: [00:18:27] So it's very much about setting up a format who can break down silos and actually bring people together. And also this format is very useful if you have people who are in onboarding situations. It's a very fast way to keep people updated and get them on board, give them the internal network that they have. Get them into projects that are ongoing. Just give them in a really fast way a set of people that they work with very closely.


Steve (Host): [00:19:00] I've also seen it applied to when you're looking at perhaps an experience, bringing together all of those who share that experience and bringing different perspectives. So perhaps from a hiring perspective it might be the recruiter and hiring manager for an example. Looking at those different perspectives and different areas of where they could improve or what what kind of frustrations they might be sharing or common ground.


Morten: [00:19:27] Absolutely.


[00:19:28] Yes on boarding. Just in terms of the resource that normally goes into on boarding somebody in the different departments that get involved. So yes, I can see that really adding value.


Morten: [00:19:39] And actually you can also add learning if you wish to a community of practice. So we did this one idea, very specialised work, might not make sense to people listening to this but you have people procuring markham resource. So external resources for anything that has to do with marketing or communications. Its quite difficult because if you have a global company so you have something that's global you have something that's local. How do you manage that? How do you resource. These people who can help you. It's very specialized and so we figured out that in a company you might have four / eight people somewhere doing Markham procurement. If you have a sort of a skill set that's like a hundred percent. Some people might know 20 percent, somebody might know 40 percent, some guys may know everything there is to know about the subject but the funny thing is, most people don't know all there is to know about one area. If you then group these kind of people, then once you have the internal network, you might know that there's this guy in Germany you know he does the same thing as you. But after you spoke to him it's a lot easier to pick up the phone and say I know you know about this and I know I need help on this. So since that's gonna be the internal network. But then if you put specialized knowledge into these groups of people by specialists in the area, everybody is going to learn a lot more. I think it would be very comfortable with knowing, people are there with knowledge. So if you have a problem, it's a lot easier to just pick up the phone and call somebody and move on. So when everybody reached a certain level of knowledge then you can take these specialists out and you can just have people working around themselves, but then at a higher level. So it's a very fast way also to do learning formats inside the organization.


[00:21:58] That's the other thing that you might want to think about as you work in H.R.. That's a lot of people who supply knowledge or education to organizations. But they're sort of trapped inside individual, nobody sells the learning organization. Nobody sells that. That would be transformation economies sort of way of looking at the same thing. So instead of just selling people new courses and certifications and stuff like that. How do you make the learning organization? How do you acquire knowledge? How do you share knowledge? How do you just store it? I mean that's a completely different way of looking at the same things, so that's what i was saying just before. It's very much how you think about things. The same things.


Steve (Host): [00:22:53] Yes. Because ultimately if you're a business of 500 people, two hundred or a thousand plus there's a lot of knowledge in there washing around that you could leverage and tap into.


Morten: [00:23:03] Absolutely. And you have these traditional siloed organizations always struggled with this. How do you share knowledge? They usually don't have a format for it. This communities of practice could be one way to do it.


Steve (Host): [00:23:17] Yes. I'd be interested to see how ING might be doing it. That could be interesting.


Steve (Host): [00:23:22] There was something you mentioned earlier which is about methods and design. Lets tack something onto that, so maybe its just something around methods and design in HR or for HR. Is there anything that stands out. Because obviously, as a designer you've got lots of tools that you can engage in and there's lots of things that you pick up over the years of experience. Are there any of those kind of methods or tools or anything that you've come across that you think actually this could work really well just as from a HR context or perspective?


Morten: [00:23:53] One of the things we talked about was that people sometimes think "Oh, I'm not a designer"


Morten: [00:24:04] But you sort of have to get beyond that because you can design just as everybody else can design. I mean it takes practice but everybody can be a designer and there's this one model that we just talked about that's going to work pretty well as a starting point for pretty much anything. And it has to do with is one of the key features about an experience is that its revealed over time.


Morten: [00:24:27] Because it's revealed over time, you can apply sort of a dramatic structure. So, if you're watching a movie, if you're watching a screenplay, if you're reading a book. There's a sort of an underlying model in how the plot is being presented and that would be sort of the stage model for a first dramatic structure. So when you work with experience design you have this five point model for dramatic structure, it's called the 5E model, so the first area is Enticing. So what happens before people enter the experience. Then you have Entering, so what happens the second people walk through the door. Then you have Engaging, which is probably during part. Then you have exiting, so what happens the second people move out and finally you have the Extending. So what happens after?


Morten: [00:25:24] The good thing about this. So if you have sort of an employee lifespan, whether it's two months or 20 years you can apply the same model. So it can be applied on every level of granularity.


Steve (Host): [00:25:44] Yes!


Morten: [00:25:46] It can also be used to design a workshop. It can be used to pretty much design anything and it just takes you through these different stages. And the thing is people don't usually think that something important happens when you enter and when you exit. But actually if you think about it something really important happens! And also for H.R. you can do this as an employee lifespan but I can also use it when people submit applications for example.


Steve (Host): [00:26:16] Yeah, absolutely!


Morten: [00:26:17] So the Enticing inquiry would be how to make people interested in sending an application in the first place, so that would be a marketing issue for the most part. You can also apply experience design here if you want to. Then what happens the second people actually submit their application, what happens then? What happens as long as you review the application, that would be the Engaging part. And then if you have a job you have 100 people applying. There's going to be one person who actually gets the job. So ninety nine people have to exit. So, how do you ensure that the exit part also is working? People invest resources in writing applications. So can you sort of throw resources their way? It doesn't have to be something expensive, just think about it. And if you think about Extending? How do you make sure that this whole experience of applying was good enough so that if you have a job some other time, they will be applying again.


Morten: [00:27:37] Because for the most part, applying is a shitty process and it's a shitty experience and I don't care who you are but if you're large scale company, if I had a shitty experience the first time, the probability of me applying some other time, no matter the job, I'm not saying it's zero, but it's going to be closer to zero.


Steve (Host): [00:28:00] Yeah, well the organization is going to need to do a lot more on the Enticing part to get you re-engaged again!


Morten: [00:28:05] So, how do you make it such a great experience that they will come back if the chance is there.


Steve (Host): [00:28:15] Yes. I think this model works really well because you can use it as a lens basically, you can focus it really tight into a particular part or a touchpoint such as the application, or it can be drawn higher and look at the whole end to end onboarding program.


[00:28:35] So for me from a recruitment point of view look at Enticing, which is looking at the attraction piece, the Entering is the application. Engaging is the actual interview process. Exiting is the decision, whether you're hired or not. And then Extending that then moves into if you're hired into how you keep them or retain or Extending is then how you leave it at least positively memorable so they're prepared to re-engage again in the future. So that works really well.


Morten: [00:29:10] The thing about experience is that the easiest experience to produce and to remember, is the bad experience.


Steve (Host): [00:29:17] Yes!


Morten: [00:29:20] And if you have a bad experience about something, you know this from yourself, you're going to tell to everybody. But the thing is, if you have a really great experience it's even more probable that you're going to tell somebody, right?


Steve (Host): [00:29:30] Yes. I can't remember the stats. I think it might be the other way around actually, I can't remember the exact numbers. I'll give you a random set number, but it is something like, eight times more likely to share bad, three time more likely three good, something like that. So, it just shows how hard we have to work to ensure that people have a positive experience. But you know that the smallest detail can impact the potential fit and the the amount of impact is far greater.


Morten: [00:30:05] If you use the model, at least makes you think about, what do we actually do? How does it work now? Is there any way we could just improve it? I mean, just a tiny fraction.


Steve (Host): [00:30:19] Absolutely. And I think also that would work really well with maybe from a layering of tools you could then move it maybe you'd like a journey map, maybe do some kind of empathy map, and then do the five E's over the top as well. It could compliment other tools as well.


Morten: [00:30:37] Yeah absolutely. It's pretty much about just mapping what is the timeline.


Steve (Host): [00:30:43] Yes.


Morten: [00:30:43] And how do you work with the different parts? I worked on one project we did that had to do about "what's the experience of being in a bus". I mean public transport right!


Morten: [00:31:00] And we actually found out asking customers that it's very interesting that one of the most important things that happens when you ride a bus is when you get in. That's the Entering point. So if the chauffeur just looks at you, maybe gives you a smile, then people riding the bus, at least in Denmark, are 70 percent happy. I mean, that's a small but very important gesture. And that happens when you Enter.


Morten: [00:31:27] Recognising that something important actually happens here. If you move into a H&M store, the only thing that happens when you enter is the sliding doors open and that's it.


Steve (Host): [00:31:42] How else did you break that bus journey down? What other parts formed that part of the experience that you found?


Morten: [00:31:53] Yeah. Asking customers we found out that two things were important when they spoke about the experience of riding the bus. It has nothing to do with actually is the bus on time. The funny thing is if you ask people who run bus companies, that's all they talk about. Is it on time? Is it not on time? That's what they occupy themselves with. But actually when the bus is there, being greeted when you get into the bus and then the other thing was, if the bus was driving pretty steadily. That was very important. So if those two things were actually happening, that you were greeted by the chauffeur when you got in and those pretty steady ride, then people were 90/95 percent happy with the experience of being in the bus.


Steve (Host): [00:32:43] Yes. I share that because obviously I've moved from London, which you know, the bus drivers aren't overly engaging at the best of times. To Sweden and in Stockholm where actually the bus drivers are really engaging. I mean they're really genuine. I can honestly say there's a difference on how that makes you feel. Just the simple thing of riding a bus and so for me. I can definitely share that makes a big difference. One thing they do need to improve though is their braking, because actually some are way too hard. But that affects how I feel afterwards, I get a little bit frustrated, they don't need to brake. Why are they breaking so much!!


Morten: [00:33:32] Actually there's this great and very easy model for implementation. It's also an E model, but it's only three E's this time and we actually used this on the bus. If you think about this from an H.R. perspective.


Morten: [00:33:47] The usual way would be to round up the chauffeurs and say "You have to be better at breaking or you have to provide a better service" and people would stand there and nod. But if there's no empowering, if they haven't got any tools, if they don't know how to. The guys or the women who were good at it yesterday, are going to be good tomorrow and those who weren't are not going to be any better tomorrow. So you have to leave people with something. So we had to look at it in the in the project. How do we make sure that the chauffeur has enough positive mental attitude so they can actually do this thing. So what's their workspaces like? One square meter of monitors and dashboards. The workings of the bus. What you really need to do is you need to find a way to optimize everything around the chauffeur because if he knows the bus is working, the doors are working, the cameras are working. Everything is fine. Then he can shift his attention elsewhere. So instead of just telling the guy you have to do this, you can make it more probable that he has the mental attitude to shift his attention elsewhere.


Steve (Host): [00:35:08] Yeah! And that's part of being empathetic to their role and challenges every day, they need to make sure the bus is safe and running effectively and all those things are running at the same time. To ensure that's taken care of as much as possible allows them to focus on what's important around the customer.


Steve (Host): [00:35:27] So one of the things I've heard from the start through to the end here. It all starts with people ultimately and the research forms a really important component of that. What do you think HR could be doing better around this piece. This is something which I think is quite interesting.


Morten: [00:35:52] As I started out with. There's something in the vocabulary, you have to introduce a vocabulary that has to do with people and not things.


Morten: [00:36:05] So it's actually this bus project we had we got an international award in OECD city called the transport achievement award. The headline for this award was putting people first. Putting people first actually I think it's a great headline for what you need to do in H.R. You need to look at people as people, because that's what they are. So they can't be numbers. They can't be assets. They can't be something you resource. They know it's not something you supply and availability of. So you need to introduce they are people. So what makes them tick. You have to you have to look at that.


Morten: [00:36:49] So you need to change the vocabulary and if you get your hands on the experience economy, there's going to be a very easy way to do that actually, because it offers some vocabulary that relates to each economy.


Morten: [00:37:11] You might also want to look at companies like Disney actually, because they speak about there's two types of organizational culture. One is by default. Which is the most common. So if you're the new guy you think, why do they do stuff like this? Because that's the way I used to work they did it in a whole different way.


Morten: [00:37:37] So you have the first months where you're trying to figure out what the culture is. Because nobody tells you and if you ask, why do you do it like this? Because we always did it like this. So they can't even explain it themselves.


Morten: [00:37:50] And then they have this other type of culture, which is by design.


Steve (Host): [00:37:54] Yes.


Morten: [00:37:55] So as a H.R.department, if you just want to make that claim, "we're going to do an organizational culture, which is by design" Get going! Because then you have to figure out what is the culture then. And if you speak about other big topics, so if you have digital transformation, innovation. You can do all kinds of things, but if you don't have the culture right. It's never going to happen. It's never going to be a 'thing'.


Steve (Host): [00:38:27] Yeah, it's going to burn.


Morten: [00:38:32] It's going to be a surface thing. So if people are not allowed to make mistakes. You're never going to have any innovation. Because innovation is about being wrong 99 percent of the time. So you need to work on the culture.


Morten: [00:38:51] So I think it's very much about how you look at things and how you rewire your brain and your perceptions about this is actually people. The good thing about looking at people as people, you can sort of just ask yourself, "what do I like"? if I'm in a setting or I like it this way, I like it that way and you know it's really nice when this happens etc...


Morten: [00:39:18] So if that's true. It's probable other people are going to have the same needs and wants. So is there a way you could implement that and often it's very easy.


Morten: [00:39:30] One of the things about the experience economy, they don't speak about best practice. They speak about best principle. So, if you have an experience that you enjoy, if you can sort of work out what's the working principle. So, what's my favorite cafe? Why is it my favorite cafe? Why does it make me feel good?


Morten: [00:39:52] I was in a bike shop the other day. That was a great experience. But you know what were the things that were actually working. So, if you take these principles and then you apply to your own business, how does then look? Because you can't do it one to one, but you can still apply the principal the underlying principal.


Steve (Host): [00:40:10] Yeah. It feels like the principals more towards moving 'towards' something whereas in best practice for me feels a bit more like it's an end it's a destination it's something you reach. Again it's how you look at it.


Morten: [00:40:25] Yeah. But if you say you have best practice, I'm not saying best practices is never applicable. But it's very rare that you have two entices that are completely the same. I have a master's degree in history and somebody sometimes people say that history repeats itself. No it doesn't. There's always something in a situation that makes it unique. The things you recognise are the patterns and principles working. That's what you recognize and then you think oh it's just repeating itself, but it's not. So it's very much the same thing. It's about working out what's the principal beneath it all. What are the implications of what is happening? It's not about the technology, it's not about the situation, it's about the implications. That might be another way to look at things when you're doing experience design. What are the implications of things?


Morten: [00:41:24] As Joe would say, it's moving from the 'what' to the 'how'. So it's not what you do, it's how you do it. If you're thinking more about how you do it, that's going to open up to you creating an experience, just by this. And again it's vocabulary. It's just putting your head in a slightly different position and then hey you've got something working for you. So it's it's not difficult.


Steve (Host): [00:41:49] So, just to help people change perspective or to broaden their view on stuff. Obviously, that requires reading or learning or training or talking to different people with different expertise. Just for the audience any kind of recommendations around really good reading or influencers that you'd recommend?


Morten: [00:42:14] I kind of like this idea about just thinking about principal. What's the working principal? Because, if you go home from work, whether you're going to be in your car, if you're walking, if you're driving a bike. Think about what's the experience that I have here. When is it a good thing? What could be optimized?. And then what do I like as a person. And if I like something, we're not that different, we're all people. That's an easy way to train sort of. You have kids right? So at some point you look for pregnant women on the street and if you don't look for them there's no pregnant women in the street. But if you look for them, they're everywhere!


Morten: [00:43:10] If you're going somewhere in a car here in Denmark. You probably have the same game, it's called yellow car.


Steve (Host): [00:43:17] Yes!


Morten: [00:43:18] And if you see a yellow car you get to punch the other person right next to you.


Steve (Host): [00:43:22] Yes, we've done yellow car!


Morten: [00:43:24] And when you look for them there's no yellow cars anywhere. But if you have this game on. They're everywhere! So it's kind of the same thing, just start looking for these things. When did I have a great experience? It could be in the supermarket. In Copenhagen a great experiences to go by bicycle instead of a car. So what's the working principal for going by bike instead of a car? Just start thinking about these little things and say if I had to apply this to my business, then what does that look like? So I think it's about flexibility, it's about ease of access and stuff like that.


Steve (Host): [00:44:09] So, I think the message there to HR or anyone in organisations to start looking for yellow calls in their business and they'll see, principally.


Morten: [00:44:20] Pretty much, just starting! I want to be part of an H.R. organization. You might call it something else. It can be an employee engagement department. That would be great! Because then it's not HR anymore. Then we actually have a vocabulary that says, this is the experience economy. Because we work with engaging people. That's what we do.


Morten: [00:44:48] So a people engagement department. That sounds a lot better. Again it's just changing words. But words have meaning so it changes perspective. And then just start doing, pretty much. And if you have to read something, I would say obviously read the experience economy. And if you don't read anything, just get this 5E model. If you have the 5E find a model, you can do refining from there, but if you just start there, you'll be fine because you're going to start working with this and the more detail you put onto it The further you'll get. So, if you don't like reading or say I don't have the time. Just remember this 5E model.


Steve (Host): [00:45:47] Yeah, just Google it, start with Google. So yes it's super easy.


Steve (Host): [00:45:52] There's a there's a parting gift for the listeners and really great advice. I think the 5E model is a really good one and way to start a movement, which is what we're all about.


Morten: [00:46:04] If I had to mention one other model. So there's the four experience realms. There's aesthetic experiences, that is to be. Then you have entertainment which is to enjoy and you have education, which is to learn, and then you have the last one, which is escapism, which is a to do.


Morten: [00:46:37] If you just think about that. So if you're waiting for the bus that's an aesthetic experience. But can you improve the aesthetic experience? Can you add elements of either entertainment? Being on the bus can be an aesthetic experience, but if you have screens you can do both entertainment, but you could also do education. So education would be, now you're travelling through on this street. So what is the history of this street? What can you find on this street? How does this street compared to other streets in the city. What used to be here. You know stuff like that.


Steve (Host): [00:47:21] So if you look at, I'm in a bus and I have this screen I have to screen content. You can use this model as well. There are really straightforward models of just very basic things. And as soon as you start working with them, everybody can do it. And it's super easy. You just have to switch on your brain.


Steve (Host): [00:47:43] Yeah, those four areas you mentioned. If you just put them on a board and then brought in team members and said look we're just going to do a little jam and see what people think. Let people put their thoughts individually first, put them up and discuss it. They'll be absolutely amazed at what can come out that, i'm absolutely certain, they'll be something.


Morten: [00:48:08] And the good thing about this model is that you can apply to any level of granularity. It could be a building, a while city, it could be absolutely anything.


Steve (Host): [00:48:36] Yes great! So I'm conscious of time now!


Morten: [00:48:40] Yeah ok, fair point!


Steve (Host): [00:48:48] Thank you Morten. I really appreciate you taking time out to be on the show. I'm looking forward to collaborating further and hope to have you over in Sweden sometime soon from Denmark.


Morten: [00:49:02] Sure, absolutely.


Steve (Host): [00:49:04] Thanks ever so much and have a great day.


Morten: [00:49:06] You're welcome. Thank you.